The WoV Thread

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

If you keep it up I'll be forced to go to a number of the websites of casinos where you say you do your drive-bys and link to the same pics you use of their promotional pages.

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That's fine, Robbie. You do that. All the screenshots in the Road Pic thread are time stamped. See if you can find one of these pics that was on the internet before I posted it. It'll put a big feather in your cap. You will have proved me a fraud. But meanwhile I've got you covered. When I want to take a pic I wheel the car around to get into position. The following pictures came out of my road pics thread. You can check them out if you don't believe it.This picture here of the Madison River in Montana was time stamped n the road pics thread last august. Notice the rear view mirror where you can see the back of the car:

Couer D'Alene Casino.This pic was time stamped last August. Oop, there's that same rear view mirror with the back of the car showing.

This picture here taken at the casino in French Lick, Indiana was time stamped in the road pic thread last September. Wow, there's that same rear view mirror with the back of the car showing.

This picture taken at the Jack Casino in Cincinnatti was time stamped in the road pic thread last October. Damn, there's that same rear view mirror with the back of the car showing.

Only you would think seeing a tiny part of the back of a junk car in a mirror has any specific meaning.

Let's see what everybody wants to see but is afraid to ask...lest it destroys their fantasies. Let's see those pics if you standing beside some of those daily jackpots you claim to hit everywhere. Maybe alone with some W2G's?

Oh that's right--you don't want any attention from the IRS because you never file tax returns.

Onawa, Iowa time stamped in the road pic thread last December. Same rear view mirror.

Deadwood, South Dakota. Time stamped in the road pic thread in January. Same rear view mirror.

Wyandotte, Oklahoma. Time stamped in the road pic thread in February. Same rear view mirror.

SunRay Park, Farmington, New Mexico. Time stamped in March. Same rear view mirror.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by RS__

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

That's not my problem with it. The problem is the general public seeing what machines I'm playing and how and why I'm playing them. My ability to make money is predicated on the ignorance of the other players under the roof. They are the ones leaving machines when they are in positive mode. Once it gets shown on TV two things will happen.

1. A lot of people will quit leaving machines when they are in positive mode.

2. A lot of people will start looking for machines in positive mode.

There is only so much money to be made. If a lot of other people are doing the same thing as I am there is not enough money in it to go around. To many pigs at the trough. With no one else doing it I get all the plays and make all the available money.

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I understand there's a significant difference between posting something online (few viewers) vs having a TV show or segment on your plays. But why write about them online, especially in so much detail? I mean, you're practically begging for people to come out to MT to compete against you. I somewhat considered taking a trip out there just to see what was all going on....but figured at $500/day in EV, it isn't worth it (lots of expenses), plus I don't know the lay of the land, would have to do the math on the games, etc. That isn't to say someone who is more motivated to travel and do new stuff if they don't have anything right now (EG: Someone like ZenKing) wouldn't fly or drive out there and do a MT tour for a few weeks or month(s), or possibly just live out there.

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Tell them to come in December or January. They'll love the hot and balmy days.

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That doesn't make any sense. Even RS__ should be able to deduce that mickey already knows nobody is ever gonna go out to Montana to check him and his total dump casinos out. That's why he keeps inviting "AP's". I've been thru there four times, only because of having to over the years. There's absolutely nothing worthwhile, and just about all the slobs up there look like and drink like him.

I think you picked up on the scam. He's another WoN lurking on the forums, only he doesn't have the brains, the resources, or the nerve to create any tale where anyone with money would bother going to a hole like he hides in. That's also why he makes up stories and drive-by pics of being in Oklahoma one day, Louisiana the next, the Montana the next. There must be someone who keeps trying to meet him up there for some kind of proof.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Only you would think seeing a tiny part of the back of a junk car in a mirror has any specific meaning.

Let's see what everybody wants to see but is afraid to ask...lest it destroys their fantasies. Let's see those pics if you standing beside some of those daily jackpots you claim to hit everywhere. Maybe alone with some W2G's?

Oh that's right--you don't want any attention from the IRS because you never file tax returns.

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I don't play for W-2G jackpots. Don't need them. Everyone knows you don't accept any evidence. That's your schtick. It wasn't put up for you, nimrod. Hows life in the trailerhood in South Dakota? SOUTH DAKOTA!!! I thought you didn't like hick states. Turns out you're just a hick too. Trailer trash to boot.

That's right, they exempt all those near-$10,000 jackpots you told everyone you play for "a thousand times"!:)

Next lie please.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by RS__

I understand there's a significant difference between posting something online (few viewers) vs having a TV show or segment on your plays. But why write about them online, especially in so much detail? I mean, you're practically begging for people to come out to MT to compete against you. I somewhat considered taking a trip out there just to see what was all going on....but figured at $500/day in EV, it isn't worth it (lots of expenses), plus I don't know the lay of the land, would have to do the math on the games, etc. That isn't to say someone who is more motivated to travel and do new stuff if they don't have anything right now (EG: Someone like ZenKing) wouldn't fly or drive out there and do a MT tour for a few weeks or month(s), or possibly just live out there.

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Tell them to come in December or January. They'll love the hot and balmy days.

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That doesn't make any sense. Even RS__ should be able to deduce that mickey already knows nobody is ever gonna go out to Montana to check him and his total dump casinos out. That's why he keeps inviting "AP's". I've been thru there four times, only because of having to over the years. There's absolutely nothing worthwhile, and just about all the slobs up there look like and drink like him.

I think you picked up on the scam. He's another WoN lurking on the forums, only he doesn't have the brains, the resources, or the nerve to create any tale where anyone with money would bother going to a hole like he hides in. That's also why he makes up stories and drive-by pics of being in Oklahoma one day, Louisiana the next, the Montana the next. There must be someone who keeps trying to meet him up there for some kind of proof.

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You ran for the hills when I proposed that $10,000 challenge. I would've made you post the money up first, chickenshit betwelshing sockpuppet Robbie.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by quahaug

It doesn't matter what your win goal is. One percent or a hundred percent, the answer is always gonna be "not enough".

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It's all relative. A 5% win on $100 isn't much. But Rob has $55,000 to get a $2500 win.

Of course with mickeycrimm winning $500 a day, Mickey surpasses Rob's wins by about $25,000 per year. Right Mickey, you win $125,000 a year playing just five days a week?

(Rob won only $100,000 a year.)

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It's not relative at all. What the heck are you talking about. 5% is 5%, 100% is 100%. It's got nothing to do with the amounts wagered.

Geez Alan, maybe you did have a profit gambling but your math skills are so poor you don't realize it. Wink wink.

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Originally Posted by monet

I see AxelWolf has came out to make a comment. The problem is he and others have waited far to long for me to care about what he has to say. I haven't read his post yet but I figure he is defending his honor and his pals honor in some way and is upset about how relentless I have been calling them out. The only one I can respect is Mission 146 because he came out immediately explaining his side for a long time. However it's hard to imagine him hanging with WoN and being oblivious to anything going on. It's hard to imagine him having lunch with WoN and DarkOz after DarkOz admits he wears make up after being back roomed for running 20 players cards. Also DarkOz claims to run a crew of 50 players of friends and family but WoN is the only one he dealt with online. Hard to believe since we know he also met up with Mission. Is it that hard to realize that DarkOz is just as bad as WoN? DarkOz uses his daughter to AP and gets her involved with WoN. DarkOz clearly runs many players cards and wears masks and make up in public to avoid detection. DarkOz gets back roomed. DarkOz sleeps on the street for years until he figures out AP and becomes the most successful East Coast AP. This story just gets weirder and weirder.

Oh right DarkOz outs the Plaza Tax Day Promotion and everyone on WoV hates him. The Wizard says he is allowed to post that type of information and tells everyone to stop giving him trouble. Heck many members get suspended for improper behavior and PMs. The Wizard breaks down the five dollar machines and all APs go ballistic on WoV.

Now two years later BBB says the forum is not allowed to talk about current AP plays... she gets plenty of negative backlash and has yet to comment. The inner circle is taking over WoV more and more and eventually it will just be a private club. They should just charge dues and make it a private board and not for public view or participation. How can any respect the Wizard... he doesn't even tell BBB she is wrong about her recent posts/warnings!?

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So you just claim you delete PM's and didn't read someone's post's? That's fine, but then making insinuatins, talking about and attacking soneone without actually reading the facts and their defences seems a bit one sided. If you want to ignore me because you don't want to confront me as to why you are attacking me for no good reason that's fine. I guess everyone can just claim they don't read posts and delete PMs.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

In fact I asked that same question here on the forum several times but no one responded. I'll ask again:
What percentage of the time have you been ahead by just one bet playing video poker?

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Starting with a bank roll of 100 units, Alan, you can expect to hit 105 units (where each unit bet pays 4000 to 1 for a natural royal flush) about 82% of the time before losing the 100 units (i.e losing your bank roll) when playing 8/5 (99.17% payback) bonus poker (assumes optimal discarding strategy - no "special plays") as shown in the screenshot. 18% of the time you will never reach 105 units before losing your bank roll of 100 units.

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Originally Posted by monet

I see AxelWolf has came out to make a comment. The problem is he and others have waited far to long for me to care about what he has to say. I haven't read his post yet but I figure he is defending his honor and his pals honor in some way and is upset about how relentless I have been calling them out. The only one I can respect is Mission 146 because he came out immediately explaining his side for a long time. However it's hard to imagine him hanging with WoN and being oblivious to anything going on. It's hard to imagine him having lunch with WoN and DarkOz after DarkOz admits he wears make up after being back roomed for running 20 players cards. Also DarkOz claims to run a crew of 50 players of friends and family but WoN is the only one he dealt with online. Hard to believe since we know he also met up with Mission. Is it that hard to realize that DarkOz is just as bad as WoN? DarkOz uses his daughter to AP and gets her involved with WoN. DarkOz clearly runs many players cards and wears masks and make up in public to avoid detection. DarkOz gets back roomed. DarkOz sleeps on the street for years until he figures out AP and becomes the most successful East Coast AP. This story just gets weirder and weirder.

Oh right DarkOz outs the Plaza Tax Day Promotion and everyone on WoV hates him. The Wizard says he is allowed to post that type of information and tells everyone to stop giving him trouble. Heck many members get suspended for improper behavior and PMs. The Wizard breaks down the five dollar machines and all APs go ballistic on WoV.

Now two years later BBB says the forum is not allowed to talk about current AP plays... she gets plenty of negative backlash and has yet to comment. The inner circle is taking over WoV more and more and eventually it will just be a private club. They should just charge dues and make it a private board and not for public view or participation. How can any respect the Wizard... he doesn't even tell BBB she is wrong about her recent posts/warnings!?

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So you just claim you delete PM's and didn't read someone's post's? That's fine, but then making insinuations and talking about and attacking soneone without actually knowing the facts and their defences seems a bit one sided. If you want to ignore me because you don't want to confront me as to why you are attacking me for no good reason that's fine. I guess everyone can just claim they don't read posts and delete PMs. I'm willing to meet you face to face and talk about and explain my reasons for whatever you are curious about and confront you as to why you are attacking me when I have never gave you any reason to do so. It just seems a bit odd to me. Just let me know when and where. I'll probably be a available. Let's hash this out in person. FYI that's not some kind of threat or anything I want to hash this out and figure out why you have so much hate for me.

Especially given our history. Anyone can go back and read everything we have talked about, and I would love to know what they can come up with as to why you are directing your anger and comments at me.

FYI I'm out and about as we speak. I'm willing to meet up now and figure this out. If you are online feel free to contact me
You have my number. If you don't have it at this time for whatever reason (new cell phone) PM me and I'll respond.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

In fact I asked that same question here on the forum several times but no one responded. I'll ask again:
What percentage of the time have you been ahead by just one bet playing video poker?

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Starting with a bank roll of 100 units, Alan, you can expect to hit 105 units (where each unit bet pays 4000 to 1 for a natural royal flush) about 82% of the time before losing the 100 units (i.e losing your bank roll) when playing 8/5 (99.17% payback) bonus poker (assumes optimal discarding strategy - no "special plays") as shown in the screenshot. 18% of the time you will never reach 105 units before losing your bank roll of 100 units.

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You're showing Alan an 82% rate, but when you start at 1 credit, then bet 2 if you lose, then bet 5 credits until you recover and make at least 1 credit profit, the rate goes up to 95%. I've used this method on the $100 machine 5 times just to try it out. I'm 5-0 and $1100 ahead doing it. It is not, however, a reasonable way to try and make consistent money.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

In fact I asked that same question here on the forum several times but no one responded. I'll ask again:
What percentage of the time have you been ahead by just one bet playing video poker?

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Starting with a bank roll of 100 units, Alan, you can expect to hit 105 units (where each unit bet pays 4000 to 1 for a natural royal flush) about 82% of the time before losing the 100 units (i.e losing your bank roll) when playing 8/5 (99.17% payback) bonus poker (assumes optimal discarding strategy - no "special plays") as shown in the screenshot. 18% of the time you will never reach 105 units before losing your bank roll of 100 units.

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You're showing Alan an 82% rate, but when you start at 1 credit, then bet 2 if you lose, then bet 5 credits until you recover and make at least 1 credit profit, the rate goes up to 95%. I've used this method on the $100 machine 5 times just to try it out. I'm 5-0 and $1100 ahead doing it. It is not, however, a reasonable way to try and make consistent money.

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Rob he confirmed your strategy. You said you had an 85% win rate and his math shows being ahead 82% of the time.

Done.

Now go and try to become a gazillionaire doing it. Guaranteed you'll end up broke!

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Now go and try to become a gazillionaire doing it. Guaranteed you'll end up broke!

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If the goal is a 5% return you'd need a 20Xgazillion starting bankroll and a casino to accept those bets to make it happen.

Now, does that answer your troll question?

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by RS__

I understand there's a significant difference between posting something online (few viewers) vs having a TV show or segment on your plays. But why write about them online, especially in so much detail? I mean, you're practically begging for people to come out to MT to compete against you. I somewhat considered taking a trip out there just to see what was all going on....but figured at $500/day in EV, it isn't worth it (lots of expenses), plus I don't know the lay of the land, would have to do the math on the games, etc. That isn't to say someone who is more motivated to travel and do new stuff if they don't have anything right now (EG: Someone like ZenKing) wouldn't fly or drive out there and do a MT tour for a few weeks or month(s), or possibly just live out there.

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Tell them to come in December or January. They'll love the hot and balmy days.

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That doesn't make any sense. Even RS__ should be able to deduce that mickey already knows nobody is ever gonna go out to Montana to check him and his total dump casinos out. That's why he keeps inviting "AP's". I've been thru there four times, only because of having to over the years. There's absolutely nothing worthwhile, and just about all the slobs up there look like and drink like him.

I think you picked up on the scam. He's another WoN lurking on the forums, only he doesn't have the brains, the resources, or the nerve to create any tale where anyone with money would bother going to a hole like he hides in. That's also why he makes up stories and drive-by pics of being in Oklahoma one day, Louisiana the next, the Montana the next. There must be someone who keeps trying to meet him up there for some kind of proof.

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If you've checked Montana out then name some of the video poker games.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Now, does that answer your troll question?

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Alan, your buddy, Argentino, is trolling a thread he agreed to stay out of. What's your opinion of that?

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

That's right, they exempt all those near-$10,000 jackpots you told everyone you play for "a thousand times"!:)Next lie please.

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I'll throw down on a 10K must hit if I ever find a play. And you would rather climb to the top of a tree just to be able to tell a lie rather than stand on the ground and tell the truth.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Now, does that answer your troll question?

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Alan, your buddy, Argentino, is trolling a thread he agreed to stay out of. What's your opinion of that?

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I think you're the troll and I am sure Dan will allow Rob's posting here since the discussion is about him.

I also think you mickeycrimm are worse with your insults than Rob and your only purpose now is to cause agitation. You've been talking about others being banned but it's you who should be banned.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Starting with a bank roll of 100 units, Alan, you can expect to hit 105 units (where each unit bet pays 4000 to 1 for a natural royal flush) about 82% of the time before losing the 100 units (i.e losing your bank roll) when playing 8/5 (99.17% payback) bonus poker (assumes optimal discarding strategy - no "special plays") as shown in the screenshot. 18% of the time you will never reach 105 units before losing your bank roll of 100 units.

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You're showing Alan an 82% rate, but when you start at 1 credit, then bet 2 if you lose, then bet 5 credits until you recover and make at least 1 credit profit, the rate goes up to 95%. I've used this method on the $100 machine 5 times just to try it out. I'm 5-0 and $1100 ahead doing it. It is not, however, a reasonable way to try and make consistent money.

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Rob he confirmed your strategy. You said you had an 85% win rate and his math shows being ahead 82% of the time.

Done.

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Yes, "Done" is the keyword here. If you make your $105 from $100 (or 105 units from 100 units) and never play again. If you keep playing, whether a day later or 20 years later, then your probability of ruin (losing your entire bankroll) is 100% for standard 8/5 bonus poker and perfect discarding strategy because the payout is less than 100% (99.17%). Now with a players club card and playing on multiplier days or using 8/5 bp to grind through free play, there is nothing wrong with continued play.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

You're showing Alan an 82% rate, but when you start at 1 credit, then bet 2 if you lose, then bet 5 credits until you recover and make at least 1 credit profit, the rate goes up to 95%. I've used this method on the $100 machine 5 times just to try it out. I'm 5-0 and $1100 ahead doing it. It is not, however, a reasonable way to try and make consistent money.

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Rob he confirmed your strategy. You said you had an 85% win rate and his math shows being ahead 82% of the time.

Done.

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Yes, "Done" is the keyword here. If you make your $105 from $100 (or 105 units from 100 units) and never play again. If you keep playing, whether a day later or 20 years later, then your probability of ruin (losing your entire bankroll) is 100% for standard 8/5 bonus poker and perfect discarding strategy because the payout is less than 100% (99.17%). Now with a players club card and playing on multiplier days or using 8/5 bp to grind through free play, there is nothing wrong with continued play.

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Of course I'm interested to see how Rob responds to this. But if I have an 82% chance of winning 5% of my money on day 1 wouldn't I still have an 82% chance of winning $5 on day two?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Now, does that answer your troll question?

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Alan, your buddy, Argentino, is trolling a thread he agreed to stay out of. What's your opinion of that?

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I think you're the troll and I am sure Dan will allow Rob's posting here since the discussion is about him.

I also think you mickeycrimm are worse with your insults than Rob and your only purpose now is to cause agitation. You've been talking about others being banned but it's you who should be banned.

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Rob is always the instigator. Rob has been trolling me for years. His very first post back here he trolled me and others. He can't snap out of it. I don't take that shit lying down. If he wants a troll fest he's got it. And you should be banned along with Rob.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

FYI I'm out and about as we speak. I'm willing to meet up now and figure this out. If you are online feel free to contact me
You have my number. If you don't have it at this time for whatever reason (new cell phone) PM me and I'll respond.

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Its almost 4 am so I think I will hang it up for the day.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Rob he confirmed your strategy. You said you had an 85% win rate and his math shows being ahead 82% of the time. Done.

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Not done. Being ahead does not compute to being $2500 or more ahead.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Rob he confirmed your strategy. You said you had an 85% win rate and his math shows being ahead 82% of the time. Done.

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Not done. Being ahead does not compute to being $2500 or more ahead.

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Just a slight error. Nothing major -- LOL.

Jesus, that was bad. And some people give gambling advice. Yowza. I'd say stick to proofreading advice, but that seems to be part of the issue.

I took a look at that WON thread at WOV. It appears BBB around pg. 51-52, got carried away with herself, and came to the protection of her hustling AP’s. She made a big to do about exposing plays on the site and how she was going to prevent that from happening.

A couple of members appeared to grow some balls and challenged her like Drawing Dead did on pg.52. Then on pg. 54 she reappears and tries to explain her view and how she over reacted. So, now she says discussing AP moves is ok, but exposing a play for revenge is still not acceptable. Meanwhile not a single syllable from meatball Mike or the illegal banking transaction off shore casino promoters and owners of that cesspool.

Also, notice the always full of gambling information guru RS makes an appearance in that thread and reminds the complainers how all the other sites like VCT are shitholes. Another words stop complaining and except what it really is, a Hustling AP site.

Quick question for Monet if he knows. Axelwolf in that same thread mentioned Quote “Jamming machines would get techs to open machines and some machines will show you the machines hold.” When you open the slot door is their a poster hanging there with the hold on it? I always thought that was privileged information, and the hold is incorporated in the chip. Do you know any facts about that claim?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Rob he confirmed your strategy. You said you had an 85% win rate and his math shows being ahead 82% of the time.

Done.

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Yes, "Done" is the keyword here. If you make your $105 from $100 (or 105 units from 100 units) and never play again. If you keep playing, whether a day later or 20 years later, then your probability of ruin (losing your entire bankroll) is 100% for standard 8/5 bonus poker and perfect discarding strategy because the payout is less than 100% (99.17%). Now with a players club card and playing on multiplier days or using 8/5 bp to grind through free play, there is nothing wrong with continued play.

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Of course I'm interested to see how Rob responds to this. But if I have an 82% chance of winning 5% of my money on day 1 wouldn't I still have an 82% chance of winning $5 on day two?

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Day 1 and Day 2 are nothing but constructs:They're a single session where the last deal/draw button press of Day 1 is 24 hours before the 1st deal draw button press of Day 2. The difference in time between the remaining contiguous deal/draw button presses is a couple seconds depending on how fast a player you are. So you have a single session composed of Day 1 and Day 2 where a particular twosome of contiguous deal/draw presses occur 24 hours apart and the other contiguous twosomes occur a couple seconds apart. The same applies to Day 1,Day 2,Day3 Ad Infinitum. As long as you play 8/5 bp (say 99.17%) all sessions are aggregated into one. You have an 82% chance of being ahead by 5% at some point in this lifelong session - the longer your session is, the more likely your lifetime bankroll is to eventually hit zero since the game has a payback of less than 100% (99.17%). No matter how many "days" you break your lifelong session into, it is still one long continuous session. So play 8/5 99.17% for fun or if you play for making money, get your players club out and go only on multiplier days or when you want to convert your free play to cash with a decent conversion rate (or when you have a vp-eligible mailer).

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Rob he confirmed your strategy. You said you had an 85% win rate and his math shows being ahead 82% of the time. Done.

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Not done. Being ahead does not compute to being $2500 or more ahead.

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Just a slight error. Nothing major -- LOL.

Jesus, that was bad. And some people give gambling advice. Yowza. I'd say stick to proofreading advice, but that seems to be part of the issue.

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I know you play 25 cent video poker, redietz and I think it's deuces wild you play. But consider this: a full house at $25 per coin 8/5 Bonus Poker pays $1,000. And any quad at $25 Bonus pays more than $3,000.

You see... it doesn't take much to win $2500 at those levels. It's just that you've never been there to see it.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

Quick question for Monet if he knows. Axelwolf in that same thread mentioned Quote “Jamming machines would get techs to open machines and some machines will show you the machines hold.” When you open the slot door is their a poster hanging there with the hold on it? I always thought that was privileged information, and the hold is incorporated in the chip. Do you know any facts about that claim?

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Hope you don't mind me answering instead of Monet... You'd see it on a screen that looks something like this.

http://imgur.com/22zqxQ7

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Originally Posted by Prozema

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Originally Posted by blackhole

Quick question for Monet if he knows. Axelwolf in that same thread mentioned Quote “Jamming machines would get techs to open machines and some machines will show you the machines hold.” When you open the slot door is their a poster hanging there with the hold on it? I always thought that was privileged information, and the hold is incorporated in the chip. Do you know any facts about that claim?

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Hope you don't mind me answering instead of Monet... You'd see it on a screen that looks something like this.

http://imgur.com/22zqxQ7

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I'm certain any slot attendant don't have that type of access. Don't that information require one person from the NGC with a key and another key from the casino to be able to view it?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Not done. Being ahead does not compute to being $2500 or more ahead.

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Just a slight error. Nothing major -- LOL.

Jesus, that was bad. And some people give gambling advice. Yowza. I'd say stick to proofreading advice, but that seems to be part of the issue.

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I know you play 25 cent video poker, redietz and I think it's deuces wild you play. But consider this: a full house at $25 per coin 8/5 Bonus Poker pays $1,000. And any quad at $25 Bonus pays more than $3,000.

You see... it doesn't take much to win $2500 at those levels. It's just that you've never been there to see it.

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I formally apologize that my playing 25-cent video poker is the reason for any math or reading errors by other people. I will endeavor to help folks out by moving down to nickel vp on occasion.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

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Originally Posted by Prozema

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Originally Posted by blackhole

Quick question for Monet if he knows. Axelwolf in that same thread mentioned Quote “Jamming machines would get techs to open machines and some machines will show you the machines hold.” When you open the slot door is their a poster hanging there with the hold on it? I always thought that was privileged information, and the hold is incorporated in the chip. Do you know any facts about that claim?

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Hope you don't mind me answering instead of Monet... You'd see it on a screen that looks something like this.

http://imgur.com/22zqxQ7

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I'm certain any slot attendant don't have that type of access. Don't that information require one person from the NGC with a key and another key from the casino to be able to view it?

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I have no idea how it works in Nevada. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by redietz

I formally apologize that my playing 25-cent video poker is the reason for any math or reading errors by other people. I will endeavor to help folks out by moving down to nickel vp on occasion.

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We're still waiting for you to explain to us how you moved a handful of six digit accumulated gambling sports wins over the years from off shore gambling sites to cash in hand.

I never said any of that. I never said "handful." I never said I "moved" anything. I never said "cash in hand." Reading is a fine art. Practice makes perfect.

For those interested readers, I mention in passing that anyone (not me, of course) who banks in another country can move money. I also mention that people have been moving seven and eight digits with bitcoins for years.

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Originally Posted by redietz

I never said any of that. I never said "handful." I never said I "moved" anything. I never said "cash in hand." Reading is a fine art. Practice makes perfect.

For those interested readers, I mention in passing that anyone (not me, of course) who banks in another country can move money. I also mention that people have been moving seven and eight digits with bitcoins for years.

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Quote" "I could demonstrate six digit wins at a handful of offshores, but you'll never know if there were six digit losses at others."

Show us six digit wins or losses. Show us anything even close to six digits with off shore sites.

Don't kid yourself. It's the gamblers who are looking for that one big client/win (or forum takeover), and who cry the blues to the rest of us when they never get it.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

I took a look at that WON thread at WOV. It appears BBB around pg. 51-52, got carried away with herself, and came to the protection of her hustling AP’s. She made a big to do about exposing plays on the site and how she was going to prevent that from happening.

A couple of members appeared to grow some balls and challenged her like Drawing Dead did on pg.52. Then on pg. 54 she reappears and tries to explain her view and how she over reacted. So, now she says discussing AP moves is ok, but exposing a play for revenge is still not acceptable. Meanwhile not a single syllable from meatball Mike or the illegal banking transaction off shore casino promoters and owners of that cesspool.

Also, notice the always full of gambling information guru RS makes an appearance in that thread and reminds the complainers how all the other sites like VCT are shitholes. Another words stop complaining and except what it really is, a Hustling AP site.

Quick question for Monet if he knows. Axelwolf in that same thread mentioned Quote “Jamming machines would get techs to open machines and some machines will show you the machines hold.” When you open the slot door is their a poster hanging there with the hold on it? I always thought that was privileged information, and the hold is incorporated in the chip. Do you know any facts about that claim?

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I've never had a slot tech come work on a jammed bill accepter so can only guess that maybe he has to pull up a screen to fix it. There are several different screens used by the slot techs and several of them can pop up at once. One of them is the screen where the theoretical payback of the game is listed. If you are standing there you can get a look at it. This is huge where "must hit" machines are concerned because then you can zero in on the exact drop and what the meters are worth. In other words you don't have to guesstimate it.

Although I've never done it I was told by a 10k must hit player that he always requests they activate the speed stop. They have to pull the screens up to do it so he gets a look at the payback screen He says he's never been turned down on the request.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

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Originally Posted by Prozema

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Originally Posted by blackhole

Quick question for Monet if he knows. Axelwolf in that same thread mentioned Quote “Jamming machines would get techs to open machines and some machines will show you the machines hold.” When you open the slot door is their a poster hanging there with the hold on it? I always thought that was privileged information, and the hold is incorporated in the chip. Do you know any facts about that claim?

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Hope you don't mind me answering instead of Monet... You'd see it on a screen that looks something like this.

http://imgur.com/22zqxQ7

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I'm certain any slot attendant don't have that type of access. Don't that information require one person from the NGC with a key and another key from the casino to be able to view it?

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No. Even a floor attendent can pull up the screen. It's not super duper secret information. One of the best ways to get a look at the payback is when they are installing the machines. I've seen them sit there for hours with the payback screen showing.

And sometimes when they just fix a minor problem they forget to key off the tabs to the screens and walk away. You just hit the tab for the payback and voila.

In Montana they have the machines print out coin-in/coin-out tickets every morning. They sometimes forget to pick them up.

Some older machines have coin in meters. Based on that you can probably figure out the rest.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Although I've never done it I was told by a 10k must hit player that he always requests they activate the speed stop. They have to pull the screens up to do it so he gets a look at the payback screen He says he's never been turned down on the request.

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Sounds like a good AP move. Wouldn't that request work on all must hit machines? Why haven't you ever done it if you knew about it?

All this bad info is not good for anyone.

It is simple. When a slot tech opens your machine for whatever reason, after completing the fix or whatever, he or she will usually, but is not required to, key thru the menu, and one of the pages on that shows coin in and coin out. It doesn't need to be a coin machine--credits are considered coins for any and all purposes. If the machine has five denominations for example, the coin in/coin out is shown in the lowest denomination (convert dollars to quarters etc. if 25c is the lowest denom. on the machine).

Nowhere does it identify a % hold. You have to be able to read the screen, write down or remember the numbers, and figure it out.

The 25c/50c/$1/2 machine I hit $28k worth of winners with a net $25k profit from last year, was opened after my last royal and I saw the data. The tech explained this all to me when I asked. Even after my massive amount of hits on a bar top that isn't regularly played higher than 25c or 50c, the hold % was around 12%. This was in the Silverrado Bar, where Dancer holds his classes. My guess is either he or his "students" play that machine regularly.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Although I've never done it I was told by a 10k must hit player that he always requests they activate the speed stop. They have to pull the screens up to do it so he gets a look at the payback screen He says he's never been turned down on the request.

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Sounds like a good AP move. Wouldn't that request work on all must hit machines? Why haven't you ever done it if you knew about it?

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There are no must hits in Montana. I've been out in the other states for just a year. The 10K's I'm familiar with have $5 meters on them which equates to .2%. There is only a 1 in 5 chance that the meter will move up to $9800, a number I would play. The machines don't get a lot of action compared to others. They sit there for months even a year without a playable number developing.

Then there is the competition factor. Some guys will play them at $9700. That's just a 2 or 3% edge. Moneywise, that's not much equity, just a couple thousand. If you get stretched out to like a cycle and half to hit it you can get in for twice as much as the meter pays. I don't want that kind of exposure. Like I said, these plays don't develop every day, week, or month. When do you get a chance to make the money up if the play goes tits on you. If they want to play them that low then they can have all the plays. I won't get involved. But I will throw down if I ever catch one at $9800.

Now, as far as the friend who told me about requesting the speed stop be activated. I've known him for 16 years but I lost touch with him for a number of years. I turns out that he has been holed up in Albuquerque since 2011. He had a super duper $5 denom NSUD progressive play (1%meter) at the Santa Ana Star in Bernalillo. The card was worth .2%, double points on Fridays, 5X points on Mondays, 3X points on Wednesdays. They kicked him out last year and stripped the $5 denom out. And the bank still has the 1% meter for dollars but you don't get points for play anymore.

He also played the 10K's. He told me how he got to look at the payback screens just two months ago.

Now, I do get occasional plays on the 50/500 must hits. Way haven't I requested them to activate the speed stop? I don't do anything to draw attention to myself.

The coin in meters have been discussed before on this forum and other forums and in articles. They have nothing to do with the hold of any machine. Never have they had anything to do with the hold or figuring the hold. They are strictly to measure what they say -- coin in and coin out -- which may not necessarily come close to the designed hold of the machine.

Once again CALL the friendly staff at the Nevada Gaming Commission and ask them. You do not need to be a member of the press to call and ask any question.

Interesting artice about slots:

http://www.dunngamingsolutions.com/f...GT_SPA-1-2.pdf

Meters are discussed.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The coin in meters have been discussed before on this forum and other forums and in articles. They have nothing to do with the hold of any machine. Never have they had anything to do with the hold or figuring the hold. They are strictly to measure what they say -- coin in and coin out -- which may not necessarily come close to the designed hold of the machine.

Once again CALL the friendly staff at the Nevada Gaming Commission and ask them. You do not need to be a member of the press to call and ask any question.

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I'm not sure what you're saying, and which machines you're referring to. I don't know on slots (I'm guessing your reply refers to slots and not vp because you mentioned a "designed hold"), but on the vp machines there's a page on the menu that brings up "coin in" (say 3,567,418) and "coin out" (say 3,194,202). These are actual numbers converted to the machine's lowest denomination.

This is what I was told at South Point anyway. Seems to make sense.

The document that MisterV posted above explains it. The figures for coin in and coin out do not represent the hold of the machine. The key thing is coin in and coin out are short term, and also you don't know when the coin in meters are reset.

It is very frustrating to see this issue come up again and again.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Interesting artice about slots:

http://www.dunngamingsolutions.com/f...GT_SPA-1-2.pdf

Meters are discussed.

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The key statement here is "Much of our slot accounting and performance analysis is dependent on the readings of the game meters.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The document that MisterV posted above explains it. The figures for coin in and coin out do not represent the hold of the machine. The key thing is coin in and coin out are short term, and also you don't know when the coin in meters are reset.

It is very frustrating to see this issue come up again and again.

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The coin-in/coin-out meters were never reset, at least on the old machines. They were either six-digit or seven-digit and simply rolled over. Like on a six-digit, when it reached 999999 it would just roll back over to 000000 and upward.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The coin in meters have been discussed before on this forum and other forums and in articles. They have nothing to do with the hold of any machine. Never have they had anything to do with the hold or figuring the hold. They are strictly to measure what they say -- coin in and coin out -- which may not necessarily come close to the designed hold of the machine.

Once again CALL the friendly staff at the Nevada Gaming Commission and ask them. You do not need to be a member of the press to call and ask any question.

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Why are you dropping the NGC name here? Did you call them over this issue?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The document that MisterV posted above explains it. The figures for coin in and coin out do not represent the hold of the machine. The key thing is coin in and coin out are short term, and also you don't know when the coin in meters are reset.

It is very frustrating to see this issue come up again and again.

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Of course coin in / coin out isn't going to show exactly what the house edge of a machine is....but if there's a significant sample size, then you can get a pretty good idea of the HE on a machine. I'm talking about slots. If the meter is at a few thousand, then it could very likely be way off. If it's in the millions, it's probably pretty accurate.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The document that MisterV posted above explains it. The figures for coin in and coin out do not represent the hold of the machine. The key thing is coin in and coin out are short term, and also you don't know when the coin in meters are reset.

It is very frustrating to see this issue come up again and again.

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So if a machine is showing 7 million coin in and 6.5 million coin-out you consider that to be short term? And why are you frustrated?

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Originally Posted by RS__

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The document that MisterV posted above explains it. The figures for coin in and coin out do not represent the hold of the machine. The key thing is coin in and coin out are short term, and also you don't know when the coin in meters are reset.

It is very frustrating to see this issue come up again and again.

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Of course coin in / coin out isn't going to show exactly what the house edge of a machine is....but if there's a significant sample size, then you can get a pretty good idea of the HE on a machine. I'm talking about slots. If the meter is at a few thousand, then it could very likely be way off. If it's in the millions, it's probably pretty accurate.

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Another factor, before the high tech, was how much payback do the handpays represent? On the old IGT slots, before 2000, coin-out meters just recorded non-handpay payouts. Some games have more handpays than others, like 10X Pay. If you look at the meters on those games they are usually showing 70% or 80% payback.

But in the case of the Wild Cherry Pies, an AP game, there was only one handpay and that was for the top line when betting two coins. The frequency of the top line hit was 360,000 so it represented less than 1% of the payback. I tracked the coin-in/coin-out on the Vision games. You could look though the screen past the third reel and see the meters. A Cherry Pie or Diamond Thief showing a 92% return played a hell of a lot better than one showing an 88% return. They had different requirements for what was playable.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The coin in meters have been discussed before on this forum and other forums and in articles. They have nothing to do with the hold of any machine. Never have they had anything to do with the hold or figuring the hold. They are strictly to measure what they say -- coin in and coin out -- which may not necessarily come close to the designed hold of the machine.

Once again CALL the friendly staff at the Nevada Gaming Commission and ask them. You do not need to be a member of the press to call and ask any question.

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I'm not sure what you're saying, and which machines you're referring to. I don't know on slots (I'm guessing your reply refers to slots and not vp because you mentioned a "designed hold"), but on the vp machines there's a page on the menu that brings up "coin in" (say 3,567,418) and "coin out" (say 3,194,202). These are actual numbers converted to the machine's lowest denomination.

This is what I was told at South Point anyway. Seems to make sense.

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A typical penny slot will have five betting levels. If it's 60 cents, $1.20, $1.80, $2.40, $3, then when you make a 60 cent bet the coin-in meter will click up 60 pennies. If you make a $1.20 bet it will click up 120 pennies, etc.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The document that MisterV posted above explains it. The figures for coin in and coin out do not represent the hold of the machine. The key thing is coin in and coin out are short term, and also you don't know when the coin in meters are reset. It is very frustrating to see this issue come up again and again.

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I've seen some machines that have the theoretical payback and the actual payback right next to each other. The actual payback was always very close to the theoretical payback.

In the old days the accounting department would send a couple of people out on the floor to record the coin-in/coin-out meters every few days. One person would recite the numbers and the other person would record them. On some machines they had to open them up to get the numbers. But on other machines, where the meters were in the top of the machine, they had scraped just enough paint off the front screen to where they could read the meters without having to open up the machine. I first noticed them doing this at the Cal Neva/Reno so I looked for it everywhere I went.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The coin in meters have been discussed before on this forum and other forums and in articles. They have nothing to do with the hold of any machine. Never have they had anything to do with the hold or figuring the hold. They are strictly to measure what they say -- coin in and coin out -- which may not necessarily come close to the designed hold of the machine.

Once again CALL the friendly staff at the Nevada Gaming Commission and ask them. You do not need to be a member of the press to call and ask any question.

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I'm not sure what you're saying, and which machines you're referring to. I don't know on slots (I'm guessing your reply refers to slots and not vp because you mentioned a "designed hold"), but on the vp machines there's a page on the menu that brings up "coin in" (say 3,567,418) and "coin out" (say 3,194,202). These are actual numbers converted to the machine's lowest denomination.

This is what I was told at South Point anyway. Seems to make sense.

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A typical penny slot will have five betting levels. If it's 60 cents, $1.20, $1.80, $2.40, $3, then when you make a 60 cent bet the coin-in meter will click up 60 pennies. If you make a $1.20 bet it will click up 120 pennies, etc.

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We finally agree on something....besides Hillary.

I'm not agreeing with what Alan seems to be saying but it might be because I'm not understanding him. When there's a page showing coin in & coin out on the menu inside the VP machine, a simple calculation does indeed provide the actual hold of the machine. This, and what I said above, is exactly what I was told at SP.

This also would corroborate how the analyses were done after the FPDW etc. 25c/50c/$1 I got put into Wynn around 2005 were removed. I was there when they were recording coin in & coin out, and that's what they used for their analysis of the overall profit they made (aka, hold)--which I wrote an article about in GT that was first approved by Wynn mgmt.

That was 13 years ago, but the menu on those machines looked exactly the same as the menu I saw on the machine I assaulted at SP.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Come on Bill, give Mickey a break. Everyone knows there's a difference between describing your plays on a forum and actually showing them hit on a TV show.

LOL

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All we seem to get from him and the other so-called AP's is, as he put it, more crocheting. They want to show us the front end, but not the back end of things, where things are connected, and, supposedly, that easy profit is quickly made. But why don't they show us a bit of the front that comes together with a bit of the back?

A television show would get all of that out to a different audience than can be found at the internet gambling message boards. You would have to think that the latter would be their last choice to disclose any specific viable gambling information. And that if next to no one is interested in the latter - since we are down to a few idiotic, make-believe posters like DarkOz there - even fewer television viewers in their living rooms would actually contemplate the "AP" life. I guess the so-called AP's here and there think they are some sort of experts while they post up obviously crappy excuses and lives, whereas, people with real lives from the real world continue to demonstrate no need or want to prove, identify, or talk at length about, anything/one.

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Come on Bill, give Mickey a break. Everyone knows there's a difference between describing your plays on a forum and actually showing them hit on a TV show.

LOL

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All we seem to get from him and the other so-called AP's is, as he put it, more crocheting. They want to show us the front end, but not the back end of things, where things are connected, and, supposedly, that easy profit is quickly made. But why don't they show us a bit of the front that comes together with a bit of the back?

A television show would get all of that out to a different audience than can be found at the internet gambling message boards. You would have to think that the latter would be their last choice to disclose any specific viable gambling information. And that if next to no one is interested in the latter - since we are down to a few idiotic, make-believe posters like DarkOz there - even fewer television viewers in their living rooms would actually contemplate the "AP" life. I guess the so-called AP's here and there think they are some sort of experts while they post up obviously crappy excuses and lives, whereas, people with real lives from the real world continue to demonstrate no need or want to prove, identify, or talk at length about, anything/one.

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In the days ahead, I'll be trying to pitch two different ideas for television shows. Both reality shows. One would involve a team of six different gambling specialists and their day-to-day battles in Las Vegas.

I have never understood this enmity to the as you say "so-called AP's". Is it that hard to believe that there are people that are capable of doing these things. I agree that for the most part none of them have described any of their advantage plays, but at least MC and Monet, and even Kewl have given some degree of information. I believe that if you put the thought and time into doing anything, you can probably do it, or at least do it better than those that don't put the time and thought into it.

Of course, these same AP's would give me hell about dice control, but so be it.

Maybe this comes as a surprise from a Singer/Alan supporter, but I find it harder to believe that it can't be done than that it can. I'm not sure that most of those claiming to do it aren't full of shit, but that's a different story.

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Come on Bill, give Mickey a break. Everyone knows there's a difference between describing your plays on a forum and actually showing them hit on a TV show.

LOL

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All we seem to get from him and the other so-called AP's is, as he put it, more crocheting. They want to show us the front end, but not the back end of things, where things are connected, and, supposedly, that easy profit is quickly made. But why don't they show us a bit of the front that comes together with a bit of the back?

A television show would get all of that out to a different audience than can be found at the internet gambling message boards. You would have to think that the latter would be their last choice to disclose any specific viable gambling information. And that if next to no one is interested in the latter - since we are down to a few idiotic, make-believe posters like DarkOz there - even fewer television viewers in their living rooms would actually contemplate the "AP" life. I guess the so-called AP's here and there think they are some sort of experts while they post up obviously crappy excuses and lives, whereas, people with real lives from the real world continue to demonstrate no need or want to prove, identify, or talk at length about, anything/one.

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In the days ahead, I'll be trying to pitch two different ideas for television shows. Both reality shows. One would involve a team of six different gambling specialists and their day-to-day battles in Las Vegas.

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Forget that. Just get a cage match, no disqualification, for MC and Rob Singer.

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Originally Posted by regnis

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

All we seem to get from him and the other so-called AP's is, as he put it, more crocheting. They want to show us the front end, but not the back end of things, where things are connected, and, supposedly, that easy profit is quickly made. But why don't they show us a bit of the front that comes together with a bit of the back?

A television show would get all of that out to a different audience than can be found at the internet gambling message boards. You would have to think that the latter would be their last choice to disclose any specific viable gambling information. And that if next to no one is interested in the latter - since we are down to a few idiotic, make-believe posters like DarkOz there - even fewer television viewers in their living rooms would actually contemplate the "AP" life. I guess the so-called AP's here and there think they are some sort of experts while they post up obviously crappy excuses and lives, whereas, people with real lives from the real world continue to demonstrate no need or want to prove, identify, or talk at length about, anything/one.

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In the days ahead, I'll be trying to pitch two different ideas for television shows. Both reality shows. One would involve a team of six different gambling specialists and their day-to-day battles in Las Vegas.

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Forget that. Just get a cage match, no disqualification, for MC and Rob Singer.

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Ha! Wouldn't be fair to MC. I'm a little older but I'm in good shape compared to him being in fast-food shape, and my consumption of alcohol is based on what I've read is advantageous in medical journals, whereas his is based on closing times. He also has no training and I have not forgotten mine. However, since he has nothing to lose and I have a boatload of it, you never know.....

My doubts about these AP's is mostly based on the fact that I was unable to be successful with the grinding away aspect, but when I combined the optimal play part with several important but complex tweaks as well as realizing that each session is in and of itself only, having nothing to do with any that have come before or that have yet to occur, I succeeded.

I do accept that there are some who profit from AP in whatever form they choose to call it, but it's also simple to deduce who's BSing and how deeply the go (such as kewlj).

Had an interesting conversation on the phone today with a gaming enforcement agent.

First, I called the NGC explaining my request for direction to regulations on slot machine hold information. She transferred me to enforcement and I was contacted with a very kind gentleman who appeared in no hurry to blow me off the phone. In fact, I explained quickly the AP claims on forums and how I was usually a doubtful naysayer. He laughed and seemed engaged in my conversation.

I asked him about the hold on slot machines and if a slot attendant could while inside a machine expose that information on the screen. The answer was yes. He said there are all different types of machines and some may have that access while plenty also won’t while scrolling through different tabs by a slot attendant. Changing the preset hold is not possible. That requires a different type of access into the machine.

I than asked him about the claims of AP’s beating slot machines out right. He said there are many cases where new machines come out and even the manufacturers weren’t aware of some winning glitch accidently created. They are always aware of this possibility and will keep close eyes on the performance of new machines for quite awhile and will in most all cases correct the glitch.

I asked about knowing when to play must hit jackpot machines. He said it’s not that hard to figure out when it would be an advantage to play those type machines, but you still need luck. He explained how you’ll see AP teams come and try to take a bank of jackpot machines, but they also need luck. He said he saw cases where 8 team players were banging away and one of the two regulars ending up hitting it.

I asked about making enough money beating machines to make a living off of it. He laughed and said what type of living are we talking about? I responded with a respectable one, you know, house, car, college tuition, retirement, health care, vacations etc. He laughed again and said of course anything is possible. He said those stories are like fishing stories. Every once in awhile someone does catch the big one. The ability to pull that off is not an enforcement concern.

He then volunteered more conversation, saying casino offerings to attract customers create many issues. I asked for details, and all he said was the issues were caused by the casinos marketing department not the machines. In several cases enforcement gets called in. He said nothing about player cards and I certainly didn’t either.

He went on to say AP exists and all casinos are aware of it. His department doesn’t usually get involved unless their contacted by the casinos or players and cheating is suspected.

That was pretty much it from what I remember. We actually threw the bull for a little while. I was impressed when he brought up the AP teams, which I guess means they see it happening and don’t care.

edit to add: We talked about the Phil Ivey baccarat move, and his response was shame on the casinos.

Good info.

What this confirms about how casinos view AP's with what I've said and have written about for years, is that casinos indeed are aware of the AP's. This in turn tells me they have no qualms about offering up all those lucrative sounding/theoretically "+EV" promotions when they know the AP's will jump all over them with as much cash as they can come up with, and play them for as long as they appear to be positive.

The question of course is, while most AP's don't talk publicly about what they do where and how they do, people like Dancer regularly do--and he toots in his articles about how he makes tons of money off of the casinos. So....is this really believable? Can he really be hammering them into the ground while he rapes their slot clubs and giveaway depts., and all they do is look the other way while they keep on inviting him in to do even more damage?

When simple common sense takes over, the answer is of course, simple.

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Originally Posted by regnis

I have never understood this enmity to the as you say "so-called AP's". Is it that hard to believe that there are people that are capable of doing these things. I agree that for the most part none of them have described any of their advantage plays, but at least MC and Monet, and even Kewl have given some degree of information. I believe that if you put the thought and time into doing anything, you can probably do it, or at least do it better than those that don't put the time and thought into it.

Of course, these same AP's would give me hell about dice control, but so be it.

Maybe this comes as a surprise from a Singer/Alan supporter, but I find it harder to believe that it can't be done than that it can. I'm not sure that most of those claiming to do it aren't full of shit, but that's a different story.

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Actually your wrong about me giving you strife over dice control. I think it's possible and must be something to it. The problem is the back wall and I think the tables have something to do with it. On the older tables that are flat, heavy slate I've seen players basically stop the dice short of the wall. On the tables with more cushion those dice bounce all over the place. I've been on tables that allow a few short rolls but they don't like those rolls that don't hit the back wall and if you don't comply they won't let you shoot so it's obvious the Casino is worried about something.

I used to mess about at Casino Royale years ago and they would let me slide the dice but I have no skill. I know for a fact that skilled shooters can slide the dice making numbers stick so why can't someone control the dice? I think they can but when they make you hit the wall and the dice bounce all over the place it's not gonna be controlled.

So for me I know the dice can be controlled but to be able to control them in real world situations and make millions of dollars is going to be virtually impossible. Better to get on a crew with employees involved and just steal or cheat to win the money IMO that is.

Basically it doesn't matter but I just wanted to say I wouldn't give you much strife over dice control. If your really able to control the dice and beat a game that is -EV that's impressive but as with anything in the Casino how long can you survive? They hawk the pit like crazy. If your able to control dice and always win your gonna get thrown out or at least told your not allowed to play dice anymore. After living in Vegas for 20 years I've noticed the Casino doesn't like or allow winners to keep playing. You can AP and stay under the radar but it's much harder to do it at black jack or dice or the pit in general. These days it's getting harder in the machine world as well. Honestly it's drying up and the doors are closing in the Casino. This doesn't mean you can't do it... I'm just saying it's far more difficult compared to years past.

You are one of very few here who will even acknowledge the possibility. I did encounter most of the problems which you have mentioned, including being barred from throwing. But the reason I quit was horses, bouncy tables, age, becoming too much strain on me to travel and maintain my form, and other business interests that were booming (in that order).

Now I play once or twice a year in Vegas or AC and pretty much just throw the dice like most of the regulars (I hate the term ploppies) and hope we get a lucky roll.

For sure, all the crowing about the so-called AP stuff here and there for the last decade far outstrips what is actually happening. People who have won nobel prizes have said far, far less in a fraction of the time. So, it comes down to a few persons who are trying to psychologically "find themselves" in a murky world. Sure, anyone could find some minute edge on slots or something, and players' cards, and run the heck out of it. But there is more to life than survival or waiting for a "scrap of uneaten burger" to hit the ground.

Yes there is definitely more to life. But there is some degree of allure to the not working and answering only to yourself aspect of what MC and Monet describe.

I have gone in and out of the suit and tie world and am always happier outside of it. However, it is pretty easy money. And over the last 10 years I scrubbed the suit and tie other than when in court. If someone doesn't like it they can get a "fancier" lawyer.

I'll give you some grief over the DI thing regnis :)

Right off the bat Frank Scoblete sells it so it has to be impossible. If it were real and attainable, he and all the other shysters would simply use it for profiting in the casinos and not advertise and sell classes for it.

I still don't understand how there can be any "control" or "influence" of any kind, with all those things sticking out of the back wall where your dice are required to hit. And please don't tell me that a "close guess" is good enuf. We were treated to that kind of BS by kew after his two table counting claim was labeled an epic fail and pure nonsense as soon as he regurgitated that the 2nd table count need not be accurate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I'll give you some grief over the DI thing regnis :)

Right off the bat Frank Scoblete sells it so it has to be impossible. If it were real and attainable, he and all the other shysters would simply use it for profiting in the casinos and not advertise and sell classes for it.

I still don't understand how there can be any "control" or "influence" of any kind, with all those things sticking out of the back wall where your dice are required to hit. And please don't tell me that a "close guess" is good enuf. We were treated to that kind of BS by kew after his two table counting claim was labeled an epic fail and pure nonsense as soon as he regurgitated that the 2nd table count need not be accurate.

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There was no "epic fail." It is really, really lame to say "was proven this" or "was labeled that" when the person doing the labeling or saying or allegedly proving is the author himself. Really lame.

I don't know kewlJ from Adam. I have no idea if he is who he says or supports himself playing blackjack. But I can tell you that counting two tables is possible.

I measured the distances myself and plopped my butt in various middle seats at the Flamingo, and Harrah's, and elsewhere, and I can see the cards with my lousy eyes well enough to tell what they are, given I have an angle of view. For those tables at longer distances, I wouldn't recommend it, but even I can tell "pips from paint." Not my jargon, because I know nothing. So anyway, the cards can be counted unless obstructed.

Now can someone count two games simultaneously? Not unless they've counted before. That's about the only restriction.

So why lie about the clarity of cards at distances at the Flamingo, or Harrah's, or about the difficulty of counting two decks simultaneously? Who knows? Ask Argentino.

If anybody is interested, walk into any of these casinos with a tape measure, a deck of cards, sit at tables, and figure out at what distance you can identify the cards. Easy enough to get to truth of the matter. My eyes are pretty bad. If I can do it, clarity is not an issue. Counting is not an issue. Obstruction of two particular seats is the only issue.

I'll do it again this week at other casinos. It's real tough to actually sit at a table, measure the distance, and figure out if you can see cards. Takes all of 10 minutes.

There is an interesting variance in lighting, so that plays into clarity occasionally. I don't have a light meter, so I can't report on that. Maybe Argentino can do some leg work and use his engineering background to report on the lighting.

Once again the real point is how long can you survive in the Casino without being asked to leave, no mailed, back roomed, or just not welcome etc. etc.

About 7 years ago I seen a guy run up his money in black jack at the Plaza. He was up about 87k total. My host at the time told me they had a meeting with management and my host and tried to figure out if he was cheating or if they should allow him to keep playing. My host and some others told the powers that be it would be best to allow him to keep playing since he wasn't cheating or counting or moving his bets. He was just on a run playing a negative game.

Did management listen... no! They decided to just bar him from black jack and he lost his money over at the nugget a few days latter.

My point is Vegas doesn't like it when you win no matter how you win and if you win too much you will be asked to leave. So win but show losses and try to not bring attention to yourself. As always leave when you sense heat and stay within threasholds to avoid detection.

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Originally Posted by monet

My point is Vegas doesn't like it when you win no matter how you win and if you win too much you will be asked to leave. So win but show losses and try to not bring attention to yourself. As always leave when you sense heat and stay within threasholds to avoid detection.

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Imagine trying to collect a handful of 100k wins (even over a long period of time) from illegal banking transactions from USA off shore unregulated (for the USA players) gambling sites.

Two things about DI:

Tables are made with a plywood "floor" and there is no slate, monet. This is not pool. The bounce is impacted by what is on top of the plywood. Casinos that add a new layout on top of an old layout will have very bouncey tables. Casinos that strip off old layouts will have tables that are not bouncey.

Beware Caesars. Not only do they put new layouts on top of old and have multiple layers, they use a new speed cloth that sends the dice flying.

Second: DIs don't hit the alligator bumps. Their dice hit the back wall UNDER the first row of bumps.