On/off casino play strategy to generate offers

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Originally Posted by redietz

what I suspect is the reason his friend scored well.

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Yes, being a no show for a period of time will get you offers to come back.

This past October I was invited back to Bellagio after being a no show for a number of years. My "come back" offer was large because the host making it used to work at Caesars.

We are being asked to believe several things in the original post:

1. That the player earned only 1,000 tier points from his $10,000 of coin in at video poker and still got generous offers because he then became a no-show.

2. That the player lost only $1,400 and still got generous offers because he then became a no-show.

So... I want to know if there is ANYONE ELSE who has ever received offers like this player got who had similar play? If just ONE forum member told me they had a similar experience it would have a big impact on my skepticism.

Yes, one person might have fallen thru the cracks. But the experience of one person doesn't help the rest of us. We know there are exceptions. We know there are lucky players who sit at a machine and get more tier points from their play than they are supposed to get. We know that accidents happen. But no one can use a strategy based on accidents that might happen.

Unless you can show me how this "strategy" is repeatable, I consider it an accident.

I didn't do it, but I know someone who played about $10k-11k coin in on VP and received $1,800 in FP. Loss was between $100 to $200.

I get 1,000 tier credits on a regular basis and receive $15 in free play and a half priced buffet.

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Originally Posted by jetermacaw

I get 1,000 tier credits on a regular basis and receive $15 in free play and a half priced buffet.

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by jetermacaw

I get 1,000 tier credits on a regular basis and receive $15 in free play and a half priced buffet.

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All this shows is that it doesn't take much to get you to go to a casino. It costs the casino about $20-30 to get you to come in and risk enough money to "earn" 1000 credits. What is the average loss? $100, $200, $400? Looks like a good profit to the casino.

The computers, algorithms, and research the casinos do all works to figure out the least amount they have spend to get you to come in and play. They spend a lot of money and time on these systems, hence the players card. If you and all their other customers come in and play, the casino WILL win money from you and all the other customers minus what they spent to get you there.

Roe the point is Jeter is getting normal offers. I believe him. I don't believe someone who puts in 1,000 tier points and gets hundreds of dollars of free play offers.

The numbers in Dan's original post just don't make sense. Sorry.

Many people have tried their whole lives to make something of gambling. Even while scamming others into believing in their books, seminars, systems, gambling sites, and online casino and other sponsors. As many people directly in the business, as casino owners, floor persons, dealers, have openly confirmed as much.

Look at where Shackleford ended up a few short years after commencing his own such forum. Straight down the shitter. Is this the recognition of a life well lived and received? Where a man should find himself at the end of a career? No one else wants to interview him, likely because, relatively speaking, he hasn't accomplished anything; and few in the real gambling industry and political spectrum have even heard of him, or pay any attention. He interviews himself, and contemplates a whole series of further interviews. Only about fifteen other persons on his forum acknowledged his latest attempt. Another of an endless series of attempts at "winning something". Oh, years ago, he won a blackjack tournament of a few "champion counters". Invitation only, no entry fee, no prize; and only after a decade or two(?) of wasting his LUCK with it.

His hangers-on, at Mike's House (Jonestown) - desperate and depleted - he is their last chance at something, err, anything. Analogous to rs_ and jbjb clinging also to Alan here. Validation and vindication enough for the few sane among us?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VSSPWNLSQg

The only question now, why the h-e-double-l didn't he ask Alan for some advice about all this years ago. Specifically, why did he show Alan (, like so many other real experts there once upon a time,) the bum's rush, when Alan could have at least conducted the interviews with professionalism and precision. Fucking boggles the mind? People who are full of themselves. Even his old friends are "just not saying anything" anymore.

http://www.trafficestimate.com/wizardofvegas.com

http://www.trafficestimate.com/wizardofodds.com

I get a kick out of MrV, another disciple in sheep's clothing over there, who often excitedly explains how only the Odds site is important to its new owners. No, the Vegas correlates quite well. No social and mental breakdowns at the Odds site because nobody says anything there, or speaks of it elsewhere. (MrV owns/owned casino stock, and minor stock in stuff like Ahigh's hundred-dollar pinball machines.)

Would Shackleford have left his name on the old sites, to be dragged through gambling mud, had he the option to not do so? Of course not. Was it Shackleford who withdrew from his initial online casino sponsor, Bodog? Of course not. Not a guy who would, and did, recourse to begging for pocket change to keep the sites online, and himself solvent. So Bodog left because there was little or declining advertising value there anymore. The value was no longer worth the trade-off and stigma of the Wizard's obvious across-the-board incompetence and childishness. So a middleman who connects many less-particular online casinos with generic gamblers (who "no speakie the language") had no qualms about letting Mr. Shackleford down easy the rest of way. Did Shackleford sign confidentially away again, his patented lame excuse for never really talking about the details?

OMG! All this serious joking about buying souls. Can a person who sold out his soul from the beginning own souls? He'd only, eventually, sell also those.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Roe the point is Jeter is getting normal offers. I believe him. I don't believe someone who puts in 1,000 tier points and gets hundreds of dollars of free play offers.

The numbers in Dan's original post just don't make sense. Sorry.

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For you and the other Diamond or Seven Stars players here earning 1000 tier points is no big deal. But how would Caesars view that gambler?

A player with no history at that casino, suddenly shows up and plays enough to earn 1000 tier points. Wouldn't that be someone the casino would like to have come back?

Someone giving $10,000 in action and taking a loss of $1400 WITHOUT any incentive for showing up would be someone any casino would like to invite back.

Bingo! Give eddie the kewpie doll for careful reading.

This is what I was referencing earlier. Dan's friend had no TR card and was only an "occasional" vp player in general, so no sustained history of behavior out there in the data-mining market.

If you duplicate those variables, I think you'll see something like what he experienced.

Hey guys I signed up to comment on this.

I agree with Alan.

I know a friend who lives in Upstate New York and visits AC once in a while. He's a gambler and doesn't play video poker. Slots mostly with some table games.

In spring 2015, he was on a super good run at the Trop and I knew he didn't have a TR card so I made the suggestion to him to go put some action there and he would likely get some good return offers.

That he did, went signed up at Caesars AC and started gambling heavy on high limit reel slots, $1 video slots, and max betting some penny games. He put on almost 2,000 Tiers in just over a couple hours of play. We anxiously awaited his return offers.

It took a couple months and the initial return offer in May 2015 was $100FP a week and 10,000 reward credits. That was it, hardly any offers for the summer and mostly just hotel stays.

In August he did take them up on a flight junket to AC which included air and 4 nights at Harrahs with no FP or F&B.

The reality is Dan's suggestion like Alan has said might have worked in 2014 when Caesars was still generous.

My friend put through $10,000 coin in in a couple hours of play as a new sign up playing high limit slots and hardly got any FP at all.

Simply put no one should be trying to mimic what Dan's suggesting and expect to get thousands in return offers for just $10,000 through VP. It's laughable to be honest to expect to get thousands in FP for that little of play.

Hi TomPits thanks for joining and thanks for posting. Even though I don't own this forum anymore, I'll thank you for joining and for posting on behalf of Dan and the rest of us.

And thanks for agreeing, too.

Look, I'll say it again: earn 1,000 tier points and you'll get a hotel offer and maybe a little free play. But the numbers Dan gave us are a bit out of whack.

Why do you guys keep saying, "That was 2014" when I have clarified again and again that this person recently got several nice offers in May 2016.

I just saw these offers in person today.

Do you guys think I'm lying?

Dan I don't think you're lying. In fact, he might have gotten all the offers you said he did. And he might have played as little as he said he did. All I'm saying is that no one else should ever anticipate getting the same thing.

And if it's not repeatable, why should we care?

Some people get lucky.

We know about the player who sat at a machine and got more tier credits than he was supposed to get. He got lucky. Does that mean the rest of us will ever get as lucky? I don't think so.

The more I think about it, your friend's "success" is like Rob Singer breaking up three queens and hitting a royal flush.

Congratulate your friend. Everyone else will just have to be in awe. The chances of it happening to someone else are between slim and none.

If it has happened to someone else, let them tell us about it.

In the meantime, there are a lot of people who exaggerate their offers and their winnings and minimize their losses. You say you know this guy and you've seen his proof. Well, several years ago I interviewed for the news several people who SWORE to me that their FRIEND was a nurse in a hospital in Vegas where a man was taken with a kidney removed in a Vegas hotel room after he picked up a hooker. Remember that story? Well, NO ONE could give me the name of their FRIEND in the hospital. And of course as we all know now, that story was bogus and was Vegas urban legend.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Why do you guys keep saying, "That was 2014" when I have clarified again and again that this person recently got several nice offers in May 2016.

I just saw these offers in person today.

Do you guys think I'm lying?

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No, but could "Rick" be lying? Maybe.

I want to note that this likely will NOT work in the Connecticut casinos. Something CET doesn't do is pull current and future offers mid-month. For example, if you got your June mailer with free play dates, and you currently have May free play dates, you can no-play on each redemption day and nothing will happen- you are entitled to the entire amount. Or let's say you get three months worth of "Reel Rewards" from Harrah's/Harvey's Lake Tahoe- CET will never void the August coupon if you no-play them in June/July.

If you show up and collect your weekly free play in CT with no-play or little play, your current and future offers will get pulled swiftly (and your account will be red-flagged). They will not get reinstated, even if you bring in your mailer (they will cite the fine print). Your complaint of "but you already made the offers to me, you can't take them away!" will be met with "okay, sue us in tribal court".

Casino offers are not the same as gambling.

Gambling, while built around a mathematical set of odds, is still primarily controlled by random events. So you hitting a jackpot today is meaningless to anyone else who tries to play, as you simply hit a fortunate, lucky random event.

Casino offers are not the ame. There is no element of randomness or chance. The computer knows exactly what it's doing, and does so based upon specifically programmed parameters.

Take Jon and Bill, both of whom don't have a TR card, and both of whom live in Los Angeles (but do not know each other).

On January 2, 2016, Jon and Bill both signed up for a TR card (independently), and both played 8-5 Bonus Poker at the same casino, for $10,000 coin-in each (independently). Both lost around $500, though not an identical amount.

Jon and Bill will receive identical offers, because they did the exact same thing on the same date and the same place, and had no history prior to it.

There is no chance that Jon would do better than Bill with his offers, or vice-versa.

Therefore, I reject your assertion that Rick "got lucky" with his offers.

No, he did not. He played in a specific pattern (on/off) in order to trigger the maximum value offers compared to his amount of play.

BTW, notice that several people in this thread have already stated that they've already seen this discussed elsewhere on the web, in forums consisting mostly of APs.

It has already been independently verified by others.


I know it sucks to think about a Johnny-come-lately player getting equivalent offers to you, when you have played hundreds of times the coin-in that he has. It seems unfair, and your immediate reaction would be to call it in to question, so you can feel better by believing that this situation is either a lie or a fluke.

But it's not.

It's known as playing the comp game, rather than letting the comp game play you.

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Originally Posted by nerakil

No, but could "Rick" be lying? Maybe.

I want to note that this likely will NOT work in the Connecticut casinos. Something CET doesn't do is pull current and future offers mid-month. For example, if you got your June mailer with free play dates, and you currently have May free play dates, you can no-play on each redemption day and nothing will happen- you are entitled to the entire amount. Or let's say you get three months worth of "Reel Rewards" from Harrah's/Harvey's Lake Tahoe- CET will never void the August coupon if you no-play them in June/July.

If you show up and collect your weekly free play in CT with no-play or little play, your current and future offers will get pulled swiftly (and your account will be red-flagged). They will not get reinstated, even if you bring in your mailer (they will cite the fine print). Your complaint of "but you already made the offers to me, you can't take them away!" will be met with "okay, sue us in tribal court".

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I have personally seen Rick's offers, both in 2014 and 2016.

I also saw the number of tier credits he earned, both in 2014 and 2016.

Rick is telling the truth.

I do believe that this trick won't work at all casinos, though. In fact, the larger the casino (or casino group), the better it is likely to work.

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Originally Posted by TomPits

Hey guys I signed up to comment on this.

I agree with Alan.

I know a friend who lives in Upstate New York and visits AC once in a while. He's a gambler and doesn't play video poker. Slots mostly with some table games.

In spring 2015, he was on a super good run at the Trop and I knew he didn't have a TR card so I made the suggestion to him to go put some action there and he would likely get some good return offers.

That he did, went signed up at Caesars AC and started gambling heavy on high limit reel slots, $1 video slots, and max betting some penny games. He put on almost 2,000 Tiers in just over a couple hours of play. We anxiously awaited his return offers.

It took a couple months and the initial return offer in May 2015 was $100FP a week and 10,000 reward credits. That was it, hardly any offers for the summer and mostly just hotel stays.

In August he did take them up on a flight junket to AC which included air and 4 nights at Harrahs with no FP or F&B.

The reality is Dan's suggestion like Alan has said might have worked in 2014 when Caesars was still generous.

My friend put through $10,000 coin in in a couple hours of play as a new sign up playing high limit slots and hardly got any FP at all.

Simply put no one should be trying to mimic what Dan's suggesting and expect to get thousands in return offers for just $10,000 through VP. It's laughable to be honest to expect to get thousands in FP for that little of play.

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Tom, glad to see a new user jumping into this discussion.

However, I have to say there's something wrong with your friend's AC story.

Granted, I don't have familiarity with the AC market, but it is shocking to me that a new slots player (something the casino LOVES) who runs $10,000 coin-in upon getting a new TR card is given crap offers.

That would NEVER happen in Vegas.

You said that he signed up for the TR Card in "Spring 2015" and got offers in May 2015. That couldn't have been very long. 2 months at the most?

Rick reported to me that his initial offers (the ones that came 1-2 months after he signed up) were crap -- like $40 freeplay, but that the next month they jumped to $500 type offers.

Is it possible he acted too quickly? Or was his first redemption that AC junket in August?

Unless the AC market acts very different than the Vegas market, something is off here.

Dan... all I want to see is ONE other player with a similar story. Just one.

Here is my 2 cents for what it's worth. Not exactly the same as Dan's friend but similar. We play on my wife's card mainly to make sure she reaches 7 star. Each year we time our play to get me past Diamond card level but here is where it get's interesting. She is a HL slot player and I am a low to mid range VP player. About twice a year she plays on my card. When she does all of a sudden my card goes from little to no activity to over 2500 tc's plus bonus in one night. This has gotten their attention at our home property because they have now assigned me a host. I get almost the same giveaway offers as she does. This past September they were giving away laptops and even though I was barely over 15,000 tc's at the time and my wife was over 150,000 I we both got laptops. In fact on a couple of occasions I received a few benefits that she did not get. We are careful not to play on my card unless we intend to put a significant amount of tc's on it in during a given day thereby keeping both of our ADT's at a respectable level. At some point they will probably realize that even though I am past Diamond for the year, I have no intention of adding much play to my card for the year. We will probably do one more session on my card later this year just to keep the pump primed and keep the offers coming. With CET they have a program in place and it is up to each of us to take advantage of it given our unique set of circumstances. So in conclusion, I would have to agree with Dan, that the on/off strategy does work in generating additional offers.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan... all I want to see is ONE other player with a similar story. Just one.

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I believe Dan. I believe Rick. I also think the bigger the company the more likely this is to work.

The people who are saying nay are quoting people who have never limited their initial play to one or two sizable back-to-back sessions, then taken a year off. The fact somebody stepped in for the first time, ran 10K through, then stopped cold, all suggest that person is a sizable player ELSEWHERE. Therefore, CET is motivated to get them back in. Players generally don't behave like this unless they are playing elsewhere. It's the nature of the addiction, and CET has the profile data to support it.

The secondary consideration, from the CET perspective, is that the new player appeared and pumped 10K through because he or she had a financial/life status change (spouse died, parents died, divorce, sale-of-house-and-retirement) that makes them particularly juicy newcomers. CET will jump through hoops to acquire this person.

Again, in the second case, if the person takes the year off, CET will interpret that to mean the person is playing elsewhere.


An interesting side note: in a curious way, people who are arguing this could not happen are underestimating the confidence CET has in creating an ongoing addicted repeat customer. Yes, they will blow this amount of free play and offers because they have the data to back up how hooked people will get once acquired.

Now nobody wants to accept and acknowledge this, and that ironically makes it more likely to be the case.

Seemoreroyals your experience has nothing to do with what Dan told us.

Alan if you look at Dan's original post in the last paragraph you will notice that my experience has everything to do with what Dan told us. If we did not work the CET system to our advantage we would easily give up a minimum of $10,000 in benefits each year.

Don't be ridiculous. Here's what you told us:

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Originally Posted by seemoreroyals

Each year we time our play to get me past Diamond card level

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There's a hell of a difference between you getting to Diamond and a player putting on only 1,000 tier points.

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Originally Posted by seemoreroyals

About twice a year she plays on my card. When she does all of a sudden my card goes from little to no activity to over 2500 tc's plus bonus in one night.

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Another huge difference between you and Dan's buddy: he gets amazing free play offers with only 1,000 tier points.

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Originally Posted by seemoreroyals

I get almost the same giveaway offers as she does. This past September they were giving away laptops and even though I was barely over 15,000 tc's at the time and my wife was over 150,000 I we both got laptops.

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Again, what the F does this have to do with what Dan's buddy got? Absolutely nothing.

Dan told us about some guy who shows up -- gets 1,000 tier points -- and gets the world handed to him on a silver platter.

So that there is no confusion, these are the key claims in Dan's original post. I would like even ONE PERSON to tell me they got as much for only 1,000 tier points as a new player:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

1) Rick got a new Total Rewards card (he didn't have one yet), ran about $10,000 of coin-in on a fairly good (but not great) VP game in Vegas, and then stopped playing.

2) This plan worked. Rick got a lot of nice offers and redeemed them. This included several freeplays of as much as $500 (about 2 weeks apart each), an NCL cruise with an inside stateroom, show tickets, a room on New Year's Eve, etc.

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Also remember Dan posted that his friend "lost" only about $1,400. So it's not like he dumped the entire ten-grand on one outing and Caesars felt sorry for him.

Alan, my comments were in reference to the last paragraph of Dan's original post. I did not say my efforts to work the system were the same as his friend that only gets 1000 points. I said it was similar. There is nothing ridiculous about it. It works. Again, please reread Dan's original post and in particular read the last paragraph.

Alan, you must'a missed my post re: other people's experience with this. Have you ignored me posts? :-(

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Originally Posted by seemoreroyals

Alan, my comments were in reference to the last paragraph of Dan's original post. I did not say my efforts to work the system were the same as his friend that only gets 1000 points. I said it was similar. There is nothing ridiculous about it. It works. Again, please reread Dan's original post and in particular read the last paragraph.

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I am just talking about Dan's post and his claims about this player getting all that he said he got for only 1,000 tier points. We've all gotten some "extras" along the way at various casinos. Some can be attributed to being off the casino's radar for awhile, and some can be attributed to other things. We all have those experiences.

But I just can't believe what Dan reported. I just want to see one other player tell me they had the same experience of taking out a new card, putting on 1,000 tier points and then getting $1,000+ in free play, plus a cruise, plus NYE, plus show tickets and whatever else.

Some things just don't add up.

Seemoreroyals, you had 15,000 tier credits. You were a diamond player. You had a history. Of course you're going to get some unexpected offers. That's how players club works.

But Dan's report went over the top.

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Originally Posted by RS__

I didn't do it, but I know someone who played about $10k-11k coin in on VP and received $1,800 in FP. Loss was between $100 to $200.

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I read this. Now what do you want me to say?

I also interviewed four people who said their close friend was a nurse at the hospital where a guy took a hooker to his Vegas hotel room and then had his kidney cut out. Yet, not one of those four people could give me the name of their friend.

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Originally Posted by redietz

If you duplicate those variables, I think you'll see something like what he experienced.

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Therein lies the problem. You could optimize the heck out of simple-minded approaches like this. How about, eg, insert only $100 bills, to give the impression of a high roller? (Like I did during my own, relatively, short stint with gambling a long time ago - when you got a "gold card" for the works - between shuffle-ups.)

Casinos have their own, likely rather simple, rules for these things, give or take some flukes. Different people working on different days.

Story one. Once, I had two hundred each on separate bets at blackjack. Dealer ace, I insured; dealer had a ten in the hole. Good play or bad play, who cares? Lots of tens left, and I didn't feel like a huge swing in the chip outcome. And, as if the casino had sent the mailer the day before, a couple of days later was a food voucher for $100.

Story two, I was up about $23,000 after four months. Luck. Was beginning to interfere with my life, and I was getting tired of it. So, to start the new year off right, I went to the high roller room, and busted out in four hands of baccarat. The plan was to double up, and quit; or lose it all, and "go home" (and stay there). About four months later, the gold card was in the mail. Went about ten times over the next six months to entertain some out-of-town guests over dinner. Tried to use up some of the regular free buffets points beyond that, barely, but I think it was into the next Christmas before the remaining points were erased by the casino for inactivity.

Sure, I played a few hands here, and there, during and since, but "it" was over for me. Waste of time. Except for talking about it. No real problem. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I also interviewed four people who said their close friend was a nurse at the hospital where a guy took a hooker to his Vegas hotel room and then had his kidney cut out. Yet, not one of those four people could give me the name of their friend.

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Nobody sticks together, and divides and conquers, like the casinos.

I missed this one, from Dan:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

My friend redeemed the following after his $1400 loss:

- Thousands in freeplay, which he converted to thousands of real $

- A few nights at Paris Las Vegas for NYE

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Now it isn't just a couple of $500 free play offers. No. Now it's "thousands in free play."

Sorry. BS meter has peaked in the red. I'm finished.

That meter had a long history of tone deafness, Mr. Mendelson, if you get my drift. Or has it been in for a tuneup recently?

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Originally Posted by redietz

That meter had a long history of tone deafness, Mr. Mendelson, if you get my drift. Or has it been in for a tuneup recently?

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I've already tuned you out.

Thanks for clarifying that. I would hate for anyone to think, given your gambling profile, that you actually listen to me.

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Originally Posted by redietz

I would hate for anyone to think, given your gambling profile, that you actually listen to me.

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Or anyone else for that matter.

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Originally Posted by redietz

Thanks for clarifying that. I would hate for anyone to think, given your gambling profile, that you actually listen to me.

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And there's a reason. Your "mission" here has been to attack Rob Singer from day 1. Rob is gone. I don't know where, but he's gone. I'm next on your hit list. I don't know who is next.

Your comments rarely include facts. You cite studies and constantly refer to the same study about addicted gaming as if that is supposed to answer all questions.

Here, in this thread. we have a claim that someone got a new players card from Total Rewards, earned 1,000 tier points and received "thousands in free play." You have never addressed that, and I think you missed the claim because anyone who read it would realize it just doesn't make sense.

No matter what books and studies you might quote, it just doesn't make sense. I'm not afraid to say it.

This has nothing to do with the idea that being absent from a casino might make a casino give you "come back offers." I have benefited from "come back offers." But what was posted here is just off the wall.

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Originally Posted by redietz

I would hate for anyone to think, given your gambling profile, that you actually listen to me.

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Nobody requires a "gambling profile" to discuss gambling. After all, being an expert at something won't help you with gambling; it will only keep you out of trouble with it.

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

Nobody requires a "gambling profile" to discuss gambling. After all, being an expert at something won't help you with gambling; it will only keep you out of trouble with it.

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I'm not exactly sure that's right. If you were an expert at card counting it certainly could help you win at blackjack. If you were an expert at dice control it certainly could help you win at craps. If you were an expert at the various skills in live poker it certainly could help you win. I think those are the only three games in a casino with some kind of "skill element."

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If you were an expert at card counting it certainly could help you win at blackjack. If you were an expert at dice control it certainly could help you win at craps. If you were an expert at the various skills in live poker it certainly could help you win. I think those are the only three games in a casino with some kind of "skill element."

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If done with proficiency, "under the radar (of casinos and other players)", and while maintaining a life outside the casinos. Nobody wants to just "get by", worry about someone looking over their shoulders (all the time), and live alone in a dump while playing around on the internet gambling forums, which are of little to no consequence in the real world.

Paigowdan (a dealer, and fledgling(?) game creator, who posts at the Wizard's) seems to think that there are exploitable weak dealers all over the place. Really? When was the last time you saw a card flashed accidentally, 100% penetration (deck dealt out in blackjack) , and bets left out after losing? I once had a blackjack dealer who held the title for fastest dealer in the casino, and didn't skimp on reminding everyone. The bigger the bets, the faster he would deal. Another, who would yell and scream at players who were winning big to try to "set them off". Lol.

Every time some down-and-out casino dealer, slot-cart operator, player's card representative... wins, eg, a WSOP event, that's all you hear. Nothing about the other thousand or two who didn't get so lucky the one time out of hundreds of such events.

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

When was the last time you saw a card flashed accidentally,

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I look forward to jbjb's response to this. He has indicated he and his cronies make a lot of money doing this which is why he is a full time casino gambler... oops... I mean a full time casino advantage player.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

And there's a reason. Your "mission" here has been to attack Rob Singer from day 1. Rob is gone. I don't know where, but he's gone. I'm next on your hit list. I don't know who is next.

Your comments rarely include facts. You cite studies and constantly refer to the same study about addicted gaming as if that is supposed to answer all questions.

Here, in this thread. we have a claim that someone got a new players card from Total Rewards, earned 1,000 tier points and received "thousands in free play." You have never addressed that, and I think you missed the claim because anyone who read it would realize it just doesn't make sense.

No matter what books and studies you might quote, it just doesn't make sense. I'm not afraid to say it.

This has nothing to do with the idea that being absent from a casino might make a casino give you "come back offers." I have benefited from "come back offers." But what was posted here is just off the wall.

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First of all, I agree with virtually everything Rob had to say regarding casinos and how to interact with them except for his insistence that his self-designed strategies, win goals, and loss limits somehow outperform optimal play. That stuff was silly.

Second, my main interest in this forum had to do with the interaction between a respected journalist and a paranormal claimant (Rob). Rob thought he could circumvent the laws of probability through his ingenious strategies and discipline. It was a classic interaction, as someone who was intelligent, had some investigative experience, and some gambling background assumed they could evaluate gambling claims. Being bamboozled is nothing to be ashamed of -- check out the SRI lab and Uri Geller. But being bamboozled and sticking to one's guns without actually checking with experts (mathematicians) is something else. It's also bizarre to pull out a BS Meter for certain claims (of the three-legged squirrel variety) and leave the BS Meter in the closet for other claims (of the flying pink elephant variety). I don't know whether to apply the word "naive" or "hubris" more; I think hubris fits the bill better.

Fortunately, Alan does not own the forum any longer, and Rob realizes the jig is up, so I can take a break from the weirdness. That relationship, however, was absolutely classic.

And by the way, Schull's book is not "a study" about machine addiction. It's an organized summary and investigation of literally hundreds of studies from many different fields covering the last 20 years. It was a massive undertaking and puts a lot of good stuff in one place.

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Originally Posted by redietz

my main interest in this forum had to do with the interaction between a respected journalist and a paranormal claimant (Rob). Rob thought he could circumvent the laws of probability through his ingenious strategies and discipline.

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Thanks. You admit you were a troll.

Hope you had fun.

For the record, I never endorsed Rob. As I wrote on my various pages: I presented his info as a record since his own website was deleted.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I look forward to jbjb's response to this. He has indicated he and his cronies make a lot of money doing this which is why he is a full time casino gambler... oops... I mean a full time casino advantage player.

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Oh, they're rare, no doubt about it. Especially in Vegas. We keep records of dealers names, casinos they work, shift they're on, etc. You're a craps and VP player and not a blackjack or carnival game player so I wouldn't expect you to look for it.

P.S. were not that old to be "cronies" yet.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Oh, they're rare, no doubt about it. Especially in Vegas. We keep records of dealers names, casinos they work, shift they're on, etc. You're a craps and VP player and not a blackjack or carnival game player so I wouldn't expect you to look for it.

P.S. were not that old to be "cronies" yet.

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So set us all staight: how many flashed cards do you see in an hour?

Depends on the game, but I'd say 30 to 100.

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Originally Posted by RS__

Depends on the game, but I'd say 30 to 100.

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30 to 100 flashed cards in an hour? How many hands of blackjack or other carnival games are played in an hour?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

30 to 100 flashed cards in an hour? How many hands of blackjack or other carnival games are played in an hour?

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Depends how fast the dealer is.

I admit I don't play blackjack and I played Mississsippi Stud maybe for a total of two hours in my life.

How many hands are dealt in an hour? I remember at a full table it took at least a minute and maybe two minutes per hand.
I also recall the dealer being changed during that hour. I don't recall if the dealer changed after 20 minutes or after 30 minutes or after 40 minutes.

Would the "bad dealer" flash a card in every hand?
In the case of multiple dealers per hour would both flash a card in every hand?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I missed this one, from Dan:



Now it isn't just a couple of $500 free play offers. No. Now it's "thousands in free play."

Sorry. BS meter has peaked in the red. I'm finished.

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Several $400-$500 offers over 6 months = thousands of freeplay.

You know, like how 400+500+500+400+450+500+400 = 3150

I am not guaranteeing that someone with a new TR card who runs $10k of coin-in will get offers identical to this, but it's definitely worth a try.

This person is again getting nice offers for returning ONCE in 2016.

Alan, you are also dismissing the real possibility that someone running $10k of coin-in will WIN. You're acting like they are risking, $10k, which they are not. If you run $10k of coin-in at $1-per-credit VP, the absolute WORST you will do is in the neighborhood of -$4k, and that would be highly unlikely.

Someone who runs $10k coin-in at a 99% return machine and does NOT hit a royal will still only average a $300 loss.

I think the problem here is that Alan is still of the mindset that comp offers are earned, when in reality they exist to bring you back to the casino. This is why they are so inequitable and often "unfair" to regular players.

Dan too much double talk. You told us he ran thru $10,000. That's 1,000 tier points at video poker. You told us he lost $1,400. Then you gave us conflicting statements about the amount of free play culminating in "thousands of dollars."

I will consider this a new Vegas urban legend. Move on.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Dan too much double talk. You told us he ran thru $10,000. That's 1,000 tier points at video poker. You told us he lost $1,400. Then you gave us conflicting statements about the amount of free play culminating in "thousands of dollars."

I will consider this a new Vegas urban legend. Move on.

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There is nothing conflicting.

Here is what I wrote in the original post, with the relevant stuff bolded:

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This included several freeplays of as much as $500 (about 2 weeks apart each), an NCL cruise with an inside stateroom, show tickets, a room on New Year's Eve, etc. Rick made several trips in 2014 and early 2015, milking the comps.

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"Several freeplays of as much as $500" should add up to thousands, right?


You can consider it an urban legend, but it's the truth. I don't know why you are having such a hard time accepting this.

Several is two. Maybe 3. Of as much as means up to 500.

I know a lot of people who come back from Vegas "about even."

That's "Vegas speak."
Is your original post in "Vegas speak" too?

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

Every time some down-and-out casino dealer, slot-cart operator, player's card representative... wins, eg, a WSOP event, that's all you hear. Nothing about the other thousand or two who didn't get so lucky the one time out of hundreds of such events.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I look forward to jbjb's response to this. He has indicated he and his cronies make a lot of money doing this which is why he is a full time casino gambler... oops... I mean a full time casino advantage player.

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Well, that was my rs__ and "angry farmer" speech above. W/o reading the other responses to date - no time at the moment - there's too much BS'ing going on here from them without a little in return.

Looks like a bunch of "cronies" to me! A bunch of guys who ban everyone else's anything to preserve their (Mike's House of) fantasies. And yet go on to make vacuous interviews and exhibitions of themselves.

I wonder who is the gnome/raccoon part way up the stairs? Reminds me of those "Wrong Turn" movies. Wow, Mike looks just like the father, in the third or fourth installment. Or the hillbillies from "Deliverance". (The inbreds with a single female between them.)

"It was twenty years ago, today, Sergeant Pepper taught the band to play... We hope you will enjoy the show, We're Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band!"

http://www.4-sqr.com/images/Vegas/Wo...ring_Fling.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/WMrLEHf.jpg

And, without further delay, here she is... BBB


P.S. That must have been one heck of an airplane you flew!

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

Looks like a bunch of "cronies" to me! We're Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band

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Too funny...this is fucking priceless.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

How many hands are dealt in an hour?

Would the "bad dealer" flash a card in every hand?

In the case of multiple dealers per hour would both flash a card in every hand?

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Did Alan shut those 2 handjobs up with these questions?

Just to be clear...jb & RS are the jerkoffs I'm referring to.

I'm looking forward to the responses from jbjb and RS___. Again, I am not a table game player, and I have no knowledge of card flashing or whatever else these APs get from sloppy dealers.

The only thing is I can't imagine the dealers are that sloppy that these guys get to see many cards or slip-ups during play. I can't imagine a dealer showing a hole card every hand. I can't imagine a dealer flashing cards to players every hand. And if one dealer is sloppy I can't imagine that the next dealer is as sloppy.

It's like the numbers that Dan is quoting from his friend. They're just too good to be true.

And, the #1 rule for consumer reporters is this: if it's too good to be true, it isn't true.

But I will give these guys a concession: maybe it was true for someone but that doesn't mean it's going to be true for anyone else.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

Did Alan shut those 2 handjobs up with these questions?

Just to be clear...jb & RS are the jerkoffs I'm referring to.

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I didn't see that until now numnuts.

As to the questions. 1) depends the game. 2) yes.

And Alan, there are many dealer that DO flash every hand. You won't find many in Vegas so don't bother looking there. If you don't to believe it, fine by me. Call every casino the country and tell them to quit worrying :-)

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Originally Posted by jbjb

And Alan, there are many dealer that DO flash every hand. You won't find many in Vegas so don't bother looking there.

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There's my answer, and the answer for many recreational players. We won't find it in Vegas.

Since I am not a professional gambler, and don't travel to casinos to earn a living, I am not going to travel to these casinos to search for flashing dealers. Sometimes I get lucky and there is a flasher in a stadium during a game. I remember my days at Syracuse when dozens of flashers (or were they streakers?) ran naked across the campus. Now, that might be worth traveling to see. LOL

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Originally Posted by jbjb

there are many dealer that DO flash every hand. You won't find many in Vegas

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As if the number of hands per hour only depends on the dealer,
it doesn't matter how fast the players act.

This kid's really come a long way.

2 months ago he didn't even understand how freeplay works.

Now he's compiled a nationwide list of the many dealers who deal 100 hands per hour,
and flash hole cards on every hand.

Before you know it, he'll be all growns up, and can move out of his mommy's basement.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The only thing is I can't imagine the dealers are that sloppy that these guys get to see many cards or slip-ups during play.

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There are no sloppy dealers anywhere. There are no AP's anywhere. Hardly anyone has been banned from a casino for winning anywhere. (Loiterers. Cheaters and thieves, who were all caught. And a bunch of naives who practically bring their "Blackjack Attack" books up to the tables with them to argue and slow the games down.) Dealers who are rigorously checked out, and licensed, follow strict procedures for dealing the various games. Who are scrutinized throughout by interactive supervisors - ten times more than the players ever were. Reminds me of watching a female dealer crying big tears when too many good cards were coming. I think she thought she was going to catch shit for something after her shift.

Anyway, when a dealer flubs a blackjack card or two, what tends to happen is that the boss will come over, and quote rule 3A subsection 2b about whatever spoils the big bets out then. In my winning run, I once had a baccarat dealer who kept trying to ram-jam whack (bend) the discards in the rack. I sat there for a few moments, and wondered aloud to the table, why is this person doing that? When the next deck of cards came out of the auto-shuffler, part way through were coming out "boxed" (face-up). Sure enough, out came the boss to "quote rule 3A subsection 2b about...". Baccarat is impossible to thus flub otherwise. Got up, watched for a while, and went home. (The rulings changed from flub to flub, let alone a deck change.)

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

And, the #1 rule for consumer reporters is this: if it's too good to be true, it isn't true.

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Try telling that to virtually any gambler, especially to the so-called pundits of "holy grail" play on the scam sites, the Wizard's included.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

But I will give these guys a concession: maybe it was true for someone but that doesn't mean it's going to be true for anyone else.

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And a few people landed on the moon. They made use of their years of training. By the time a bunch of high school dropouts make sense of the last dealer flub or two, it's on to guessing what to do about the next ones. It's not that you'd have to be/are smarter than average to be a real AP/SP, only that you'd have to be a double genius.

You guys are all absolutely right. AP doesn't exist and every dealer is perfect. :claps hands:

It appears Dan made this thread's storyline up to generate activity. More of the "overcomped" pile. Anyone reading this who has even the slightest knowledge of how casinos operate would laugh loudly. And Bill, do you ever tire of NOBODY reading or caring about your rather poorly written & dithering posts?

Dan, you did what arci always does and stepped into your own trap. $10k is nothing to most vp players, just as it's nothing to most casinos on the Strip. To claim he was handed all that is something only an empty shirt phony like redietz would believe--and then only to stir up Alan's juices. I suspect Dan got a chill run up his leg when he thought of how to incorporate the non-existent value of one of those useless and tiresome cruises that seem to mean the world to him, into yet another thread. He even got RS__ to continue to show how little he knows about gambling in general.

If anybody misses me then get the tissue out for the summer. Just before we're leaving we took a trip to LV. My wife wanted to go back to Piero's one more time before the holidays. I don't expect anyone who makes multiple calls into CET customer service to see if he can get a $6 charge comped, who would rather start a fight with his girlfriend over how to get a buck-fifty bottle of Gatorade instead of paying some service guy $50 to go get it, or who's deftly afraid of having to pay a $14 resort fee....to be able to handle the prices there, but then again, anyone who has nothing going on in his life outside of being a big deal Vegas gambler has a very small world to operate in anyway. It's not really that hard to figure out if a person loses at gambling or not.

I'd file this nonsensical story by Dan right there with all the BS Dancer's been fabricating for his weekly column over the years.

I see Rob popped in to lash out at me for no reason.

Rob, I understand that you resent APs and anyone with a mathematical mind, because they see right through your nonsensical, logic-defying "winning strategies".

It's amazing how Rob wants us to believe that he was able to beat extreme probability and mathematics for 10 straight years, but thinks it's impossible to believe that there's a way to pattern your play (as an infrequent player) to maximize the comp offers versus the amount of play to get there.

You, Alan, Bill Yung, and various others here are missing the point.

The marketing computer is a form of artificial intelligence. It is programmed by humans with a set of parameters and behaviors, and then they release it to think on its own and make its own decisions.

However, unlike robots depicted in sci-fi films, modern AI -- even the best designed ones -- are not sentient beings. They cannot analyze or consider the "why" of anyone's behavior. They can only take hard data and react based upon that. These AI systems are only as good as their programming. Google "Tay Microsoft" and you will read a laughable tale from a few months ago where a harmless (and supposedly advanced) Microsoft Twitter bot was manipulated by users into making anti-Semitic, racist, and misogynistic comments. The bot didn't know what it was saying, or why people made it say these things, but the rest of us certainly did!

Same thing with casino marketing computers. They also cannot figure out the "why" of these situations.

If a human was analyzing Rick's play (say, a host), they would immediately see what he was doing. They would see one $10k coin-in session in 2014, followed by several no-play stays over a 6-month period, where Rick just milked all the comp offers. If Rick tried to get this human to give him nice offers in 2016, again just based upon one $10k-coin-in type session, the human would laugh in Rick's face. "It's obvious to me what you are and what you're trying to do. Fool us once, shame on you. Fool us twice, shame on us", the person would tell Rick.

But the computer cannot see something "obvious" like this, if it has not been programmed to look for it.

Therefore, while a host would (accurately) see Rick as a comp whore looking to milk the system for the second time in 2 years, a computer sees him simply as a gambler who may have run out of money to gamble with, but seems willing to return and put in a lot of action again.

That's how Rick is still getting offers, despite having redeemed way more comps than his play has earned overall.

You can try to deny this all you want. Rob, I know you thrive at denying the truth, even when it's shoved right in front of your face.

This thread was not for people like you, Rob. It was for the intelligent gamblers who wish to utilize a little comp trick which still seems to work.

Dan the problem is basically this. "Rick" played only $10,000 coin in. Many of us find it hard to believe he got the offers that were claimed.

$10,000 coin in is only 1,000 tier points. Many of us are very familiar with Total Rewards and we know what you have reported is something none of us could ever expect.

Good for Rick. But no one else should ever expect anything like what he got. It ain't gonna happen to any of us.

Alan, none of us can expect it because we are regular players, or at least regular visitors to the prooperties.

Rick is not.

He is in a different category than the rest of us.

Comp offers are not earned. They exist to get you back to the property. The harder you are to lure back, the more generous the computer will be with you.

"Rick" hit the comp lottery. End of story.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

And Bill, do you ever tire of NOBODY reading or caring about your rather poorly written & dithering posts?

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Unfortunately, EVERYBODY did read your stuff, and soon discovered you were the ASSHOLE of the universe.


P.S. Go back and read my first post here. And then ahead to my last.

And enjoy what's left of your rental life. As you, yourself, wrote, for you or your old wife "to die first" in what, by all appearances, is a real shack. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

You, Alan, Bill Yung, and various others here are missing the point.

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What more point do you require? Gambling is a downhill journey, even for the "perfect experts in their perfect world". However, there's a growing field of study about gambling, and the people who involve themselves with it. I guess you could conclude that internet forums are their own addiction.

http://www.trafficestimate.com/wizardofvegas.com

Alan had it right along. Even with "entertaining" the Singers of the internet.

In a million years from now, people - if any left, doesn't matter - will have long since dispensed with everything random. Nothing shall then be uncertain or unanswered, except this pokey "question", itself. Like saying the only thing certain now is that same but reversed pokey "question" at the dawn of the world of thought. Nothing wrong with being fascinated with, or even nagged about, approaching the theory and practice of the "carnival games" now. I dare say a lot of truly interesting stuff which most persons don't even know to ask about. Quantum Theory and monkeys typing.

Determining, eg, how the prime numbers are distributed has zero value in the real world. But the handful of the brightest of the brightest struggle with such questions for hundreds of years. Perhaps, mathematicians too seek a god, if only of a different sort. There's already so much higher math about the random. Maybe those primes are of an extended normalized (finite) random distribution, beyond any L-function or special modular form patterns. Maybe these guys have been looking in the wrong direction altogether.

Point is, Alan set up a good realistic forum, and let about as much slide as reasonably possible. Takes A LOT of heart for a trained journalist to stand up to a bunch of phony mathematicians and big talkers. His name out there.

You just have so much with which to work on a gambling forum of any sort. Primarily, you have to let also the Singer's have their say.

I'm posting out of my fondness for Rob. I'm not sure exactly what an "empty shirt phony" is, but I seem to remember winning a contest with thousands of sports handicappers last year, finishing third (technically tied for second, but I lost the tiebreaker) in another with thousands of contestants, and finishing second in LineMasters Bowl Contest (I did not enter the regular season LineMasters contest). I try to not bring these things up ad nauseum, but Rob needs an occasional reminder that I did some things recently.

And, oh yes, a couple of months ago Rob was on my case, suggesting I needed to get in better physical condition to match his prowess. I remember saying I'd need 60 days, and then we could tackle a 5K together. Rob, the 60 days are up this week, and we should do it. Let me know which 5K we'll be doing together.

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Originally Posted by redietz

I'm posting out of my fondness for Rob.

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You gotta laugh how Alan sponged almost 5,000 posts out of him. Lol.

red, nothing about you or your persona here is real, which you know. You claim to be in good physical shape, and for all anyone knows, there's a good chance you're lying about that too. Even better, you could be in your 30's constantly fighting love handles.

Bill....it's surprising you've never noticed how few responses there are to your mostly obscure posts----posts you no doubt believe are a cut above everyone else's. Too bad/so sad.

Dan, I didn't read your exceedingly long post, probably written that way because you just couldn't get the forum-satisfaction you seek in order to alleviate how the truth sometimes affects you. However, I hope you learned a lesson about posting a fantasy story of comps etc. when none of the facts support any of it. Use your head next time. CET is fighting bankruptcy. They would never have a policy of giving away the kitchen sink to get back any player who did something as meaningless as put $10k thru the poker machines. As I said, you stepped into your own vp trap on this one. And listen to Alan when he mockingly says "Rick" hit the comp lottery.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

red, nothing about you or your persona here is real, which you know. You claim to be in good physical shape, and for all anyone knows, there's a good chance you're lying about that too. Even better, you could be in your 30's constantly fighting love handles.

Bill....it's surprising you've never noticed how few responses there are to your mostly obscure posts----posts you no doubt believe are a cut above everyone else's. Too bad/so sad.

Dan, I didn't read your exceedingly long post, probably written that way because you just couldn't get the forum-satisfaction you seek in order to alleviate how the truth sometimes affects you. However, I hope you learned a lesson about posting a fantasy story of comps etc. when none of the facts support any of it. Use your head next time. CET is fighting bankruptcy. They would never have a policy of giving away the kitchen sink to get back any player who did something as meaningless as put $10k thru the poker machines. As I said, you stepped into your own vp trap on this one. And listen to Alan when he mockingly says "Rick" hit the comp lottery.

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Well, Rob, if I were arci, I'd say you were projecting, but I'm not arci, so just let us all know what elements of my persona aren't real, and we can construct some wagers from there. I'm sure Dan would love to hold the money while we sort out reality and fiction. I notice you didn't say my accomplishments last year were phony. They're too easily proven true, so you blather something abut a "persona."

And I never said I'm in "good physical shape," Rob. I had my last vestiges of vanity stomped out on a track Thursday when a teacher at Science Hill lapped me three times during my eight laps in the eighth lane. He was blasting five flat miles, and he was still going when I finished. I spent most of my life in the top half percent of the population in cardio fitness, but I can tell you "58 is not the new 50." I suck -- I weigh too much, I have no speed, and my leg strength is shot. But I think we should have the 5K race anyway.

So let me know if we're betting on my persona or a 5K race or what, and we'll ship some money to Dan and get the show on the road. Let's pin down what I'm lying about, first of all.