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What would you know about coaches?...you were in the band...the marching band, not Black Sabbath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
Now get lost and go back to cheerleading for nancywormm, and spying on IBYA from behind trash cans.
Why don't you confront IBYA and ask him if he is jbjb...instead of being a pathetic coward stalker?
I can only control what is in my control. There are plenty of views at ZZ. I do not know why these guys no longer post. I'm inclined to think posters from BJFT are intimidated by Norm. But many are reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Naw, this is fun. I would've loved to have some of these guys around to help battle that rat bastard Flash. Can you imagine LarryS, Monet, RobSinger, Mendel, Mendel, and MickeyCrimm combining forces? Coach Bella's starting 5. lol I'll bet you would have never been banned in the first place. Imagine Sir Normcelot trying to ban 18 guys all at once. Hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
It is what it is. Maybe you're trying to hard to put makeup on a pig? I dunno.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Moses, you take some of these things too personally. YOU too are a grudge holder. I have some of that in me, but am really trying to let that go. It is no good. It eats you up inside. Always trying to settle scores.
No one fought more with Flash than I did over the years. But it never was personal with me. Flash was misleading players, especially newer players for a very long time. To the point that he mentored new players for a fee. That was what it was really all about with him. I won't even get into the suspicious robbery that Flash suffered, losing funds that belonged to new players he was mentoring...… a LOT of funds. All I am going to say is that people that know more about it than I think Flash's gambling addiction at Craps; and the horses, had a lot to do with that. :(
I also conversed privately with Flash for several years. He shared some things that I have never revealed, but let's just say it was undeniable Flash had an agenda, to make money off of new inexperienced players. Misleading them, that only he could teach them to play a winning game.....at a fee. Shades of Laurence Revere from the 70's.
But again, it wasn't personal with me, I just wanted the misleading to stop. And it now has. Mostly because Flash is old and in severe declining health. There is no longer a reason, to bad mouth him as you continue to do. Just let it go.
For what it is worth, I have been advised that "Mr Wonderful", "Mr Q" is also not in great shape health-wise. That is part of the reason, I was willing to try to move forward and put the past behind us. Sadly, he was not willing to do so. I have no regrets for trying, for taking the high road.
I'm never going to lose that intensity. If I do? This place will eat me alive. Flash mirrored nearly every single one of my posts from August 2013 to September 2016. I turned the car and me around that day. I became the shit deliverer and no longer the shit taker from that day on.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
You kept going after Norm, the head. Remember I said, "you can't reach the head without first taking out a knee." Well, Flash was a knee and I took him out. He posts very little anymore and T3 has tempered his posts considerbly.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
I ran a close second. T3 and I had good natured fun for the most part. But Flash was brutal. I prefer to be a nice guy and tell a couple of jokes. Then there is that demonic side where those should know not to poke.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
You God Damn right it's personal with me. But that was his decision. Not mine. The difference is I don't quit. He did.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Yes. Ditto with emails. BTW, he shared that list for others to see. Who knows? One more of them could have been a pit boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
You really should go back and read some of your work. Yes, it was personal, and to your credit, you destroyed him to anyone that read your posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Ahem. I'm not a buyer of that one either. Too many puppets, muppets, and socks over there. Evidently, Norm must hollered a big SHUT THE FUCK UP to them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Knowing the hole card in Black Jack is worth 9% give or take (depending on rules, etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
That's with discreet play and getting the exact card 100% of the time. It's over 13% with S17, perfect insurance, and late surrender. Plus it being a fast game makes it one of the best plays. Other games give much larger edges but are much much slower.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayKnowing the hole card in Black Jack is worth 9% give or take (depending on rules, etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Disclosure: I no longer engage in hole-carding. Haven't for about 6 years now. I don't care for winning that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
That said, the maximum advantage from HCing can't really be achieved because very frequently, you are identifying a HC of 10, under the dealers 10 that is showing making the dealer hand a 20. In these frequent cases there is really only so much that you can do. You can hit your hard 17, knowing the dealer has a 20, but do you really want to hit your hard 18's and 19's EVEN though you know they are losers? If you hit these hands you risk losing the whole gig, exposing what you are doing.
So not hitting these hands, is like "cover". You are giving up some of that maximum advantage.
If your just getting pips, it's more like 3-4%. Not hitting 17 or higher is included in discreet play.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJDisclosure: I no longer engage in hole-carding. Haven't for about 6 years now. I don't care for winning that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
That said, the maximum advantage from HCing can't really be achieved because very frequently, you are identifying a HC of 10, under the dealers 10 that is showing making the dealer hand a 20. In these frequent cases there is really only so much that you can do. You can hit your hard 17, knowing the dealer has a 20, but do you really want to hit your hard 18's and 19's EVEN though you know they are losers? If you hit these hands you risk losing the whole gig, exposing what you are doing.
So not hitting these hands, is like "cover". You are giving up some of that maximum advantage.
This 2 sentence post proves beyond any doubt that you have absolutely no clue about card counting. Something you have admitted BTW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
So having absolutely no clue, why do you still have an opinion? I'll answer my own question. You can't help yourself because you are so obsessed with anti-APism and anti-KJism and trying to discredit me, that you HAVE to voice your negative comments and opinions, despite that you have no clue what you are talking about.
It was the same thing with counting two tables and gaining an advantage with partial counts. As I mentioned before EVERY count that a card counter gets....is a partial count, because of the unseen cards. So any unseen cards just gets added to the rest of the unseen cards after the cut card.
I knew you wouldn't take my word for it, so I went to a couple well known long-term card counters that I knew also employed tracking multiple table, Richard Munchkin and Don Schlesinger. I asked Munchkin to come here and weigh in. After looking at the site, he said "no way he wanted any part of this site". He did agree to raise the topic on the next viewer mail segment and I don't even know if he followed through. Next up was Don Schlesinger and I just couldn't even bring myself to ask him to come here and be subjected to this crap.
And it wouldn't have mattered because there were other BJ players or former BJ players like RS that weighed in saying they have done some version of tracking a second table and you just dismiss them as well. You dismiss what you don't want to hear, even though you have no clue about the topic. I couldn't subject someone like Schlesinger to that.
And you do this with everyone, mickey included, frequently voicing your predetermined, negative, anti-AP opinion about something you know nothing about. And when I call you out as having a negative anti-AP agenda, you play all innocent and say "who me"?
KJ. How is that you think losing is somehow gaining your EV?
For example. I was 5-0 in MLB for the month of June. But 0-3 on the Atlanta Braves. That friggin Teheran was 0-2. His problem, which is my headfuck, is he throws BBs at the best teams and couldn't throw the ball in the ocean against the lousy teams if he were standing on the beach.
I never watch the games I bet. But I just wanted to look in shortly after the game started to be sure he was pitching. Otherwise the bet was null and void. He already given up a grand slam and they were down to the O's (the worst team in baseball, perhaps history) 4-0 with no outs. The game couldn't have been 5 minutes old. That has to be some kind of a record.
Point is, I'm still on my usual pace of winning 64% of my bets, that some say is not possible...and I'm still looking and have found ways to improve. A recent little nugget of info rewarded me with the biggest payoff in a couple years.
It hurts me watching you take those hits that you don't need to take. I can't imagine what they must be doing to you. There is no question in my mind that if you work on your game then you would avoid those freefalls.
Losing doesn't gain you EV, playing gains you EV. No offense, but I am going to ignore the rest of your post because sports betting is not relatable to blackjack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses
Blackjack is a long term game. In the short-term anything can and will happen. Wild swings, both winning and losing. This is variance. It is part of the math.
What overcomes that short-term variance is a large trial size. This is part of the law of large numbers. You need to hit a certain amount of play, what exactly that is, is fair game debatable, but there is a point for each game, where the number of trials overcomes any short term variance and results will be close to expectation. This is all part of Don's N0 (that is N-zero) discussion.
So you know what EV is. Expected value. So each round of each game has an expected value. And you add all those small parts of expected value up and once you get to the long run, past the N0, results will come reasonable close to expectation.
Almost every year, my accumulated EV and actual results have been very close. This represents the long-term as defined by the LoLN. I have had 2 outlier years, one in each direction, one 60 grand below expectation or accumulated EV and one almost 50k above expectation/ accumulated EV.
And you know what the funny thing about these two outlier years are? They were back to back. So if you add them together, boom, these results also hit expectation or accumulated EV. We are back to a fair discussion of just what constitutes "the long run". But accumulated EV is how you track play, not results, which will go up and down like a yoyo or the stockmarket. Acummulated EV is steady and in the end results and accumulated EV will come in line with each other.
Here's the thing about "accumulated EV". Alan never heard of it, so like everything else, he jumped on that, thinking this was one of those "gottcha moments" that he is always looking for.
But the fact is this is not my concept. Everything I do was learned by others before me. In this case, "accumulated EV" is how all the big teams dating back to Uston and including all the MIT teams track play and split up earnings. Nothing new. Maybe they didn't call it "accumulated EV". Maybe they used different terminology, but that is exactly what they did. BUT god forbid, Alan is not familiar with it, so he attacks it....and me. :rolleyes:
KJ. the sports bet analogy exactly pertains to blackjack. Regardless, of how well you are doing or how much you are earning, you never stop looking for value. IT's called tweaking. Now my tweak paid back $5,100 on a $2,200 bet. ERA doesn't win ballgames. Wins win ballgames. However, lines are often set by a pitchers ERA.
Okay, you just did great job of explaining to me what you learned in a book and what a sim would reflect. I will be the first one on my feet to give Don S a standing O for his fine work, endless dedication, and effort to a game cards played by people. Unfortunately, WE play a game of people with cards.
Therefore, your uncommon valor and determination will unltimately lead to your demise. Doesn't seem fair does it? IT's just the way it is when our opponent can quit at anytime. Ironic, I think you are smarter than you think you are, and you think you are pretty darn smart. Your mind is closed and that costs you time and money.
kew, you're throwing around the same load of crap that you did on your two-table nonsense, where "partial counts" mean something. Why do you persist with such a moronic position?
Now we get further treated to the "accumulated EV" baloney. It's no different than the wizard, Dancer, and a few others claiming "even if we lose, we win!" because every hand was played at a theoretical edge. The old phantom bucks claim again.
So let's hear the REAL story why this Munchkin weirdo is afraid to appear here. Obviously, he doesn't like to take a beating on the tough questions like you do. Or maybe he's unlike you and has a problem with lying.
More complete nonsense, against proven mathematics, by Rob Singer. Disclaimer: Rob Singer claims to have won a million dollar playing negative EV video poker using a progressive betting system. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
So you have heard of "wonging"? (named for Stanford Wong, aka John Ferguson) Wonging into a game involves backcounting the game and jumping in when the player is at an advantage . Sometimes the backcounting begins at the start of a new game (new shuffle), but more often than not in the middle of play. Partial count. All that matters is the cards that you see. Doesn't matter if 10 rounds were played without you seeing them. This is a proven mathematical fact.
You can actually walk by a table with 3 players and see a bunch of small cards, and know the next round favors the player regardless that there were many unseen rounds.
Learn the math, Singer.
You are making a blanket statement on freeplay. Most everyone knows how to download and use freeplay they've generated. But only a small percentage of people know how to use a freeplay loss rebate promotion to an advantage. Even AP's don't know it until they run into it then research it. I think jbjb had just never run into that kind of promotion before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Okay, one other little tidbit and then I will shut up. The NFL channel ran a continuous marathon of the year each team won the Super Bowl over Memorial Weekend. I recorded everyone of them. I have it on while I'm doing blackjack research, practicing, or just getting ready to go play for the day. Some, my lady for example, says I'm overly competitive and too driven to win.
Well, that's true. But not my point. In everyone of those shows, only one team was the ultimate winner. Now the average fan might remember those were great teams. However, those were also teams, that overcame great adversity. Even the 1972 Dolphins went 17-0 a feat which has never again been accomplished. But their QB broke his leg in the 5th game and was replaced by an old verteran that almost didn't survive training camp. Then he stepped back to the bench when the starting QB returned for the Super Bowl.
My point is, playing with everything in me to be the ultimate winner each day. It may not always happen but it's the way I always compete.
C'mon KJ. That is not math. Maybe good instincts. Perhaps a decent assumption. But not math. How do you know a bunch of large cards didn't come out in the one or two previous rounds you didn't see?Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
This is not the case at all...jbjb did not understand how basic freeplay worked.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
It had nothing whatsoever to do with a loss rebate promotion.
I saved the thread, read it and weep....
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Not quite coach. Only hedging those roulette games. I know/knew EXACTLY how it works on regular slots/video poker As for me, I use mine on vulturing 100%+ plays. So far today, +130.25 from $35.75. Still have $4.25 left.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
This is not the case at all...jbjb did not understand how basic freeplay worked.
It had nothing whatsoever to do with a loss rebate promotion.
I saved the thread, read it and weep....
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You didn't understand how VP worked...Quote:
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Now take your buck and a half home and give it to mommy for letting you live in her basement.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
On the way out, assure Ozzy that you're not IBYA, and inform clueless tewl that you are a machine hustler.
Kiss my ass you stupid ploppie!Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
You didn't understand how VP worked...
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Now take your buck and a half home and give it to mommy for letting you live in her basement.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
On the way out, assure Ozzy that you're not IBYA, and inform clueless tewl that you are a machine hustler.
Ozzy can fuck off too. He has a problem and thinks he knows me, come say something!!
You don't know that a bunch of large cards didn't just come out. Doesn't matter, those unseen cards are just added to the unseen cards after the shuffle point, effectively making the game shallower penetration. Let's say the cards on the felt total +10 hi-lo running count. 6 deck game. The true count is 1.67 based on the cards seen (+10) with 6 decks unseen (actually slightly less). It doesn't matter if those unseen cards are before or after the cards seen, which is the data point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses
This is incorrect moses. It is in fact based on mathematics. Algebra in fact. You should check out Abdul Jalib's true count theorem for the algebraic equations and formulas. Or you can read about it in BJA3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses
I do the same thing. Play it off in small increments on the vulturables.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjbNot quite coach. Only hedging those roulette games. I know/knew EXACTLY how it works on regular slots/video poker As for me, I use mine on vulturing 100%+ plays. So far today, +130.25 from $35.75. Still have $4.25 left.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
This is not the case at all...jbjb did not understand how basic freeplay worked.
It had nothing whatsoever to do with a loss rebate promotion.
I saved the thread, read it and weep....
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Hmmm. Interesting. You're the shoe expert. I have to know or I don't know in pitch. what's played = what still remains.
So what you're saying is you know the TC is at least 1.67 but could be much higher? In this case, do you bet it as a TC 1.67 or give it more juice? I'm curious is all.
Wonging in is generally not the way I play. I prefer to play off the top of a fresh shuffle and wong out aggressively of negative counts, preferably wong out of a negative count and into a positive count at the very next table. :) (when that opportunity is available)Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses
But there are occasions that I am walking by a table and see a reasonably high running count after seeing only a round or two. The way I play it is to jump in with 1/2 max bet. I don't change that amount, betting the same as long as I have an advantage. One of the advantages of wonging in is that you don't have to vary bets. Just pick an amount and flat bet since all rounds are played at an advantage. But like I said, I don't usually play this way. I think it draws too much heat. Zenking (remember him.....he started this thread) has recently mentioned that he has been wonging in a lot lately. I suspect the next thing we will hear from him is that he is getting 86ed all over the place. :rolleyes: Hope not though.
By 1/2 max bet. Do you mean table max?Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
The heat would scare the hell out of me. Short term profits for long term gains doesn't seem prudent. Also, jumping into a large stakes table might raise the dander of another counter.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
The kid has guts. Be cool ZenK. Those 86ers will follow you for a lifetime - it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
No I mean 1/2 my max bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses
Sadly this is true and it grows more true each day with advances in technology and databases and information sharing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses
It is easier to identify what draws heat, backoffs, 86ings, database entries and avoid it, that to un-do heat and database entries. Very hard to undo the damage once it has been done.
So tough behind a screen eh coach yellow belly, fat slob. You can be certain you would NEVER have the gonads to say any of this to my face old man.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyWhat would you know about coaches?...you were in the band...the marching band, not Black Sabbath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
Now get lost and go back to cheerleading for nancywormm, and spying on IBYA from behind trash cans.
Why don't you confront IBYA and ask him if he is jbjb...instead of being a pathetic coward stalker?
This is typical WoV reject stuff and a major reason for the many problems here. These anonymous tough guys who neither gamble much if at all, nor have the courage to do anything but try to intimidate from the safety of their pajamas....they're now a dime a dozen. They were turned into pussies by Shack, and over here they thrive on conflict. It's like having a chaotic roomful of out-of-shape mickeycrimms shouting over each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzySo tough behind a screen eh coach yellow belly, fat slob. You can be certain you would NEVER have the gonads to say any of this to my face old man.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyWhat would you know about coaches?...you were in the band...the marching band, not Black Sabbath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
Now get lost and go back to cheerleading for nancywormm, and spying on IBYA from behind trash cans.
Why don't you confront IBYA and ask him if he is jbjb...instead of being a pathetic coward stalker?
Rob, you are always writing about yourself. You have thrived on conflict for 15 years in the forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerThis is typical WoV reject stuff and a major reason for the many problems here. These anonymous tough guys who neither gamble much if at all, nor have the courage to do anything but try to intimidate from the safety of their pajamas....they're now a dime a dozen. They were turned into pussies by Shack, and over here they thrive on conflict. It's like having a chaotic roomful of out-of-shape mickeycrimms shouting over each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzySo tough behind a screen eh coach yellow belly, fat slob. You can be certain you would NEVER have the gonads to say any of this to my face old man.Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
Let me know where I can find you, and I'll confront you no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
What are you gonna do anyway, try to hit me with your clarinet?
Hope he doesn't play the tuba.:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
Tuba not a problem either...he'll end up wearing it as a hat.Quote:
Originally Posted by MosesHope he doesn't play the tuba.:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
Funny Coach story: Coach was probably 27 at the time. The toughest kid in school and decent football player thought he wanted a piece of Coach. So one day in PE, coach brought out the boxing gloves and head gear. He starts lacing up his gloves. The kid walks over, "what are you doing coach"?
Coach replies "I thought I'd see if anyone wants to box," as he hands the guy the head gear. "Aren't you going to wear any Coach"? Coach chuckles and says "naw, I don't think I'll need it."
So coach just knocks the soup out of him. But he cleverly smiles and laughs while he is doing it. The kid had enough and goes to sit in the bleachers. Coach comes up still laughing and says "great workout, wasn't that was fun"? Kid replies "sure coach, fun" with the tweety birds circling his head.
I'll be back in Detroit area for Christmas to visit family, I'll gladly confront tough guy JBJB ( Ibeatyouraces) and see how slick he is face to face.
As for you coachporkbelly, I'm not going to confront an old out of shape fat slob...In jbjb( Ibeatyouraces ) case he's around my age, maybe around 5 -9 150lbs soaking wet with steel toe boots, no contest compared to my 6-3 240lbs.
You'd gladly confront a 5'9' 150 guy? big whoop...that just shows what a coward you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
You've been stalking him for years, why didn't you ever introduce yourself,
instead of hiding behind trash cans all this time?
I'm not old or out of shape, I'm right in your ht/wt class...you afraid to pick on someone your own size?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
And what's up with this Detroit for Christmas bullshit? Where will you be hiding for the next 4 months?
He's hoping it will all just fade away by then coach. These guys who talk tough also know how to hide with the best of them. Why do you think mickey stays away from places like Nevada....Quote:
Originally Posted by coach bellyYou'd gladly confront a 5'9' 150 guy? big whoop...that just shows what a coward you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
You've been stalking him for years, why didn't you ever introduce yourself,
instead of hiding behind trash cans all this time?
I'm not old or out of shape, I'm right in your ht/wt class...you afraid to pick on someone your own size?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
And what's up with this Detroit for Christmas bullshit? Where will you be hiding for the next 4 months?
Bitch, you couldn't beat the flies off your skinny ass. If you ever come around me I'll bitchslap your ass clean into next week. Same for Petunia. You two bitches got alligator mouths and hummingbird asses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerHe's hoping it will all just fade away by then coach. These guys who talk tough also know how to hide with the best of them. Why do you think mickey stays away from places like Nevada....Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
Your colorful drunken spew aside.......how many times are you going to threaten to shoot, slap, beat, poison, or blow me before you actually get the courage to visit me in Arizona or South Dakota (which is closer to your dumpy apt.) or to man up and go see coach? And guess how much better it is to be wirey and in shape than fat and worthless after years of the alcohol eating your organs away....and the nicotine rotting your lungs out!Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmBitch, you couldn't beat the flies off your skinny ass. If you ever come around me I'll bitchslap your ass clean into next week. Same for Petunia. You two bitches got alligator mouths and hummingbird asses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerHe's hoping it will all just fade away by then coach. These guys who talk tough also know how to hide with the best of them. Why do you think mickey stays away from places like Nevada....Quote:
Originally Posted by coach belly
Another dumb question. Are you guys really going at each other? Or is this like those guys in the Clint Eastwood movie Gran Torino. No offense, but I read it as a Gran Torino script. Funny as all hell.
Fuck you, geriatric. You come see me. If you do you better have your hat in your hand or I'll cap your ass. You're a little bitch punk. Clean up the cowshit around your place, shit shoveler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerYour colorful drunken spew aside.......how many times are you going to threaten to shoot, slap, beat, poison, or blow me before you actually get the courage to visit me in Arizona or South Dakota (which is closer to your dumpy apt.) or to man up and go see coach? And guess how much better it is to be wirey and in shape than fat and worthless after years of the alcohol eating your organs away....and the nicotine rotting your lungs out!Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmBitch, you couldn't beat the flies off your skinny ass. If you ever come around me I'll bitchslap your ass clean into next week. Same for Petunia. You two bitches got alligator mouths and hummingbird asses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Dan needs to get rid of Singer for good. He'a a maggot piece of shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses
Well this forum is a complete joke. I thought it was going to be different here, so this is my last post, but the amount of garbage the admins let go on in each thread and the straying of off topic conversations about endless bullshit is ridiculous.
Let me also comment on the backcounting and 'unseen cards' and counting two tables topic. For the idiots here who say you can't make money or gain EV by just 'watching' are just showing their ignorance of the game. Of course you're not 'gaining EV' by watching, but what you're doing is you're 'SAVING' money by not placing money in a negative expectation round waiting for the count to go up. Because of this it's addition by subtraction. You are getting to the long run quicker and your win rate goes up because your win rate doesn't decrease by placing negative expectation bets.
If any of you idiots even know about the blackjack metric 'N-ZERO' which is the amount of rounds in blackjack it takes to have an 84% chance of being ahead, you will quickly realize for a pure backcounter, the N-zero is around 13-15k with decent to average rules. Someone who plays off the top and plays negative wagers even if he wongs out aggressively will have a N-zero around 20k-25k. Now what does all of this mean? The pure backcounter if he jumps in at +1 will be playing 25% of those 13-15k rounds thereby having only about 3.5k rounds of actually PLAYING. If the pure backcounter only plays +2 and higher, he will play only 16% of the rounds 'observed' and the N0 will generally be about 200 roudns less(better). So not only has this backcounter now reduced his risk due to many less 'playing' rounds as well as having a general N-zero that is better than the guy who is placing wagers off the top in negative expectation bets. The guy who plays off the top and plays the whole shoe regardless of the count or one who wongs out aggressively is PLAYING a lot but he's also playing a lot of negative expectation bets and because of this will take about 20-25k rounds depending on his wong out approach to reach his N-ZERO so although he is PLAYING more, he is playing inefficiently and will have to see a lot more rounds than the pure backcounter who is saving money by 'viewing' these negative rounds rather than 'playing' these negative rounds.
The point of all this and I wouldn't expect any degenerates on here to understand which is why there is so much ignorance in one thread. The reason is these degenerates have a different way of viewing 'gambling'. These guys need 'action', they don't understand the theoretical aspect of advantage play and what it means to have an advantage or an edge over a game. If they're not actually playing, there first instinct is 'how can you make money?", and the answer is twofold. Yes, you CANNOT make money by not playing, but you also cannot LOSE money. You are SAVING money by not placing negative expectation bets, which lets you get to the long run quicker, increases your win rate, and reduces your risk substantially. With that being said, if you're backcounting two tables and both of them go positive, you obviously can only jump into one, so the rounds you 'observed' at the other table DO NOT count towards the long run since you never got to play that shoe so it's as if you weren't even there. Now if you had a team to take advantage of that, then yes it would count, but for a solo player, that is not correct.
Peace out trolls, this forum is a joke.
Alriiighty then. Guess you answered that question. But I'm telling ya, you guys should be joke writers for a sitcom or something. Classic stuff.
Alligator mouth and hummingbird ass. Wearing a Tuba for a hat. Colorful drunkin spew. Fuck you, geriatric. The guys love this stuff. You guys are changing the language of an entire city. LMAO
We call a guy the "Pulling Guard" because no one can get around him at a buffet. When he starts talking he never shuts up. My 82 year old 82 pound friend Lou told him if he didn't shut his alligator mouth that his hummingbird ass would be flying all over him. For the first time in history. Pulling guard was speechless. :cool:
Good points ZenKing. My approach had to change to "I can't make money if I'm not allowed to play." But this sounds like shoe rhetoric so I'll leave that up to you and KJ.
Now, in sports betting, I can't lose money if I don't bet. Thus I have the luxury of being very selective. Sort of like the King picking out a girlfriend.:cool:
Good post Zenking. Correct on all points, including the state of this site. Some of us that take gambling seriously have tried to convince Dan to have this site go in a more productive direction, which in turn would have drawn more serious players. Dan has refused. He apparently enjoys a garbage site, with personal attacks.
One of the great things about my career, is that I got to "reset" after my learning stage and implement things that I personally had learned. My first 5 and a half years was playing Atlantic City, first playing very low red chip level and then moving to low green chip level. By the end of those 5 and a half years I had learned two really big things.
1.) In this day and age, with less favorable rules, like H17 and surrender becoming very rare, the 'play all' approach that card counters had implemented for decades was no longer realistic. Play all under these conditions will result in a player just spinning his wheels, maybe grinding his way to a very small advantage.....a fraction of 1%, and experiencing tremendously high variance to get there. The play all approach has to be abandoned, with the player "escaping" at least some of the negative counts, preferably the most negative counts. There are various ways to do this, ranging from a pure wong-in, meaning you are ONLY playing advantageous situations, to a a play off the top and wong-out aggressively, escaping the worst of the negative counts, to just taking some strategic bathroom and phone call breaks, also escaping the very worst of the negative counts.
2.) second big thing was that a player needs a large rotation of stores and playing reasonably short sessions so that they are not seeing the same dealers and pit on a daily basis as I was in AC. Many players accomplish this by extensive travel. I chose a different path.
So I personally got to "reset" my career based on these things that I learned through trial and error in Atlantic City. So I moved to Vegas, providing me with that larger rotation of playable games. No place else offers as many playable games in such close proximity. They may not be the best games on the planet, but they are playable and abundant within a very short distance.
For the second part, I chose short sessions and playing off the top of a fresh shuffle with an aggressive wong out, as opposed to a pure wong-in. Since I play mostly the outer ring 'locals' casino circuit and often tables are not crowded, I just felt like pure backcounting (wong-in) was to much of an attention draw.
After moving here, because of those less crowded conditions, I was able to start tracking a second and occasionally third table at the same time I was playing my primary table. Of course the non educated BJ types here, have no clue to this, but this essentially acts as a pure wong-in opportunity, on top of my regular aggressive wong out regular play. Sort of a 'best of both worlds'. And it has served me very well. Solves all problems.
I know you have adopted the pure backcounting or wong-in approach and I wish you well. Just be careful. Try to gauge if it is drawing too much heat prior to THAT becoming a problem.
Here's a back counting video by one of the ignorant degenerate gamblers on this site.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenKinG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMXQUAxSB5o
You are a funny (odd) guy JSTAT.Quote:
Originally Posted by JSTAT
A couple comments from your video. First, you cards are severely warped. Geez, the shuffled 6 deck stack reaches about 8 inched high. :p You need to change out the cards like the casinos do. Ok that comment is just in fun.
Second, your demonstration, with 4 players playing and the open spot in the middle that you hope to jump to during a positive count, is one of the drawbacks of pure back-counting or "wong-in". We have all experienced it, you waste a few minutes back counting and just as the count gets juicy a couple players swoop in and gobble up the last couple spots. Sometimes other back counters, sometimes just bad timing with ploppies. :mad:
Even with my tracking a second table, this sometimes occurs. My game is neutral, the table next door is heading positive and just as I am preparing for my "jump" someone beats me to it. Just one of those annoying little things in life. :( Now our friend, Zenking here is "cursed", so this probably happens to him more than most of us. ;)
How many is large? How few is short? FWIW, I've been working on a 4 to 6 store rotation with 2 shifts for a few years. No more Gyard for me. 100 hands is considered a long session. 7 hands is the shortest. 20 sessions a week is all I need to get all I want.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Speaking from experience, consider the game as a marathon and not a sprint. In the beginning winning was my only objective. But a win today, Play tomorrow approach puts far more dollars in your pocket as time goes on.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Dude stood on a soft 15 at the 6:30 mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by JSTATHere's a back counting video by one of the ignorant degenerate gamblers on this site.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenKinG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMXQUAxSB5o
I have anywhere from 30 to 3 dozen casinos in my rotation at any time. And those games are split into several levels. The best of them, I push the envelope and play 5-6 times a month, trying hard to mix up days and shifts. The next group I play 2-4 times a month and the final group, just once or twice a month. That final group is sort of the auxiliary group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses
As much as filling out the rotation, I visit and play monthly just to keep track of the conditions (rules/penetration) and be sure they haven't improved, in which case I would move them up in the rotation. I also may need to move them up should another game in the rotation suddenly deteriorate, change rules or penetration for the worse, which occasionally happens. And sometimes if I suffer a backoff or two, or sense heat that I back myself off for a "cooling down" period, I may move one of these one-a-month games up temporarily. Particularly a backoff or heat situation involving on of the chain casinos. I may remove the entire chain, from my rotation for a month or so and need to fill out the rotation.
I hear ya. I refer to this as the shear vs slaughter dilemma. Maybe a better analogy would be milking vs slaughter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses
I like to credit the many folks who I have learned from along my journey, when I can and to this note it was Stanford Wong who said something along the lines of learning to be a successful card counter is less about counting and putting the money out at the right time and more about learning how to be welcome to continue to do so. Bigplayer also said something along those lines, but it was Stanford that I read it first.
Like you, I very much dislike graveyard. I prefer day shift and have gotten lazy and try to work regular hours more than I should. But I do mix in other shifts, including several days (nights) of graveyard that I schedule each month.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmDude stood on a soft 15 at the 6:30 mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by JSTAT
Kind of a stupid mistake standing on that A-4. Was taken to the woodshed in the YouTube comment section and other venues. Most of the video was accurate about Wonging. The 10 minute time limit imposed and three glasses of wine didn't help. Still won the hand :D
Thanks for watching
Go back to WoV... they seem to welcome and love you with open arms!Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenKinG
LOL... Nobody on WoV Trolling Zenking!
Why are they always suspending you over at WoV?
More to the point, the bigger joke is you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenKinG
What a load of bs you're spewing by claiming "how special it is to be such a knowledgeable AP who's smart enuf to not play bj when it's -EV" because you're "saving money".
First genius, theoretical armchair babble might get all the self-absorbed mensas and weirdos all wet at WoV, but there's people here who actually GO to casinos here, and real results are the name of the game.
Next, you people play -EV all the time when you're at tables where you're waiting for the count to go positive, so don't try to claim how cunning you are by not jumping into a negative table. Big whoop. Then the THEORY of bumping up bets begins to be told, yet casinos have countermeasures against that, and NONE of you are smarter than their cameras, computers, and programs. I understand the need for people who think they're super duper bj players to build up their perceived reputations on forums, yet when held to the fire kew etc. fold like cheap lawn chairs when asked to meet and prove their prowess.
You idiots are more transparent than you know.
Oh come on Monet! You know why his is constantly harassed there. Are you going to play dumb now. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by monet
Zenking brings some of that on himself. He makes it hard to like him and root for him with some of his antics and accusations, of "Chinese playing cards" and "mobbed up Las Vegas". And when the membership gives him a hard time that he sometimes deserves, he gets angry, cursing and generally not following the rules. :rolleyes: And at this point the "over moderators" are just looking for him to suspend.
I think it is kind of a shame, because despite all his goofiness, Zenking represents the frustrations, including variance (ups and downs) that a card counter playing for a living goes through. It is kind of an accurate view into the rollercoaster ride that is card counting for a living. And I think that is good for anyone that might be possibly aspiring to take the card counting journey to see. Sort of a lost opportunity by WoV, in my opinion.
Disclaimer: The above idiotic comments are made by a person claiming to have made a million dollars playing -EV video poker, using a progressive betting system. Something mathematically impossible. So clearly this individual knows not of what he speaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Interesting approach. I have my Big 4. I sorta have T times like that of a golfer. I know when to get the best quality hands straight up. The other 2 serve as fill ins. On a week that is full, like Hot August Nights or between Chrismas and New Years, I will go 25 the week before 10 the week of and 25 the week after.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Some of the graveyards have a shift change at 9am. So if I'm up and feeling chipper I will use those as fillers. A problem for me is few will bump the table min up to $100. They will for others, but not for me. Thus I caution ZK. So maybe I can catch a $100 table min on a weekend. But not usually for very long as it fills up quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Ahem. Actually, Rob. I am. But I'm not super duper. Just a hard working guy who keeps the game simple. As for forums? I enjoy the heck out of guys like you. IMO humor is a very big part of my game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
As a counter, I've adopted a sort of delayed reaction form of communicating. The dealer yammers on and on and I catch buzz words or voice tone to shake my head, yes or no, or make a quick comment to keep them moving forward. In life, it has become a habit. Drives my lady nuts. For instance, if she says you're getting pancakes for breakfast. I don't reply. If she asks, "do you want pancakes for breakfast"? There is a two or three second delayed response. If she asks, "what do you want for breakfast"? There is a 7 to 10 second delayed response.
But even the guys I hang out, tell the same old stories over and over. A shitload of listening.
So forums fit my communication perfectly. And you guys give me new material to give to those guys. LOL
I remember you having a problem with sarcasm or how to read sarcastic comments and questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJOh come on Monet! You know why his is constantly harassed there. Are you going to play dumb now. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by monet
Zenking brings some of that on himself. He makes it hard to like him and root for him with some of his antics and accusations, of "Chinese playing cards" and "mobbed up Las Vegas". And when the membership gives him a hard time that he sometimes deserves, he gets angry, cursing and generally not following the rules. :rolleyes: And at this point the "over moderators" are just looking for him to suspend.
I think it is kind of a shame, because despite all his goofiness, Zenking represents the frustrations, including variance (ups and downs) that a card counter playing for a living goes through. It is kind of an accurate view into the rollercoaster ride that is card counting for a living. And I think that is good for anyone that might be possibly aspiring to take the card counting journey to see. Sort of a lost opportunity by WoV, in my opinion.
It appears you still have a problem discerning my comments or questions.
I happen to have had a few dealings in real life with ZenKing.
It was pretty obvious that all three of my comments and or questions were all sarcastic or rhetorical.
Anyone that knows ZenKing or his history at WoV knows that when you read my quote that you quoted.
I have followed all of ZenKings Posts from his first post at WoV under the name ZenKing.
What I find interesting is that he can go on a rant and rave about the Mob and the Cheating Casinos but that is ok compared to what goes on at this site.
Chinese Decks and Beast Mode on Shufflers... no problem to post that noise.
You would think ZenKing would be Pro VCT compared to that of WoV because you are not monitored over here like at WoV.
ZK was saying something, in his post that I quoted, about the Mods or Admins over here lol... It is only Dan Druff you knucklehead.
Dan doesn't care about the quality he only wants quantity and traffic or at least it appears that way.
It is pretty mind boggling how ZenKing will post up threads about how he is going to take all the Casinos to court and beat them.
He can post up how he is going to stand on the street with a sign about how 6/5 BJ is wrong.
He posts up all kinds of accusations over at WoV.
One of my favorites is how he is going to beat down 4 to 6 security guards if they ever try something or touch him.
However this is the Evil site and not worthy of such a King!?
------------------------------
Let us look at one of his WoV threads/posts as an example.
Too many funny examples to look at this guy and wonder how he would not fit in over here ranting and raving.
I thought him and this site would be a match made in Black Jack Heaven.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gamb...t-to-everyone/
It seems ZenKing actually decided to show up at the very Hush/Hush Private Secret Handshake WoV Spring Fling 2018
It appears that KJ, that is kewlJ (I think), is a Fraud as well according to ZenKing!?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenKinG
Notice how he finishes this statement/rant...
"God bless me. No matter the adversity, no one can stop me. Keep it coming."
It is pretty wild to be inside the mind of the Great ZenKing!
ZenKing has so much Wild Material and Posts at WoV that it would take me a couple of years to break them all down for us over here.
Eventually ZK might get banned from WoV and he won't have much choice anymore.
He will be forced to hang out with us over here at WoV West.
He recently was banned on Norms site as well... around the same time as Spiderman.
Haven't been to Vegas for awhile - it's nice to hear that they allow mid-shoe/mid-hand entry now at a lot of shops, so that Zenking and whoever else that wishes to can just jump into high counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
A question about JSTAT's video:
So it's okay to sit at a table and watch the cards and decide which hands to play and not play? They actually let you do this?
seems like a sure way to take heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Appropriate song at end of video. Gonna Fly Now. Especially, for this forum and thread. Go. Kj. Gaaaaooooo. lol Why are you guys reading this? Get back to training. :cool:
At one time it was wide open. Stanford Wong published the strategy of standing by and counting, waiting for a positive count before jumping into the game. The term "wonging" took hold. But you don't do it sitting at the table, Alan. You do it standing a few feet away. Or, imagine this, Alan, doing it from the next table. LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
But when the count goes negative the AP is not going to sit there and say "deal me out this round." They are going to get up and leave (wong out). Or maybe they might fake getting a phone call.
The casinos got hip to wonging and many eliminated mid-shoe entry.
You can get away with sitting out a couple hands at the end of play at double deck. Just say something about these cards are bad, I'll wait for the shuffle. Especially if you have lost a 2-3 hands in a row, or if a new player has joined the table. Say something about messing up the flow of cards (complete nonsense). It won't endear you to the other players, but a number of things that I do, don't endear me to the other players. :rolleyes:
Personally, I think it draws attention, so I don't do it too often. It just doesn't look that natural. If you are going to do this, do it once per session. You can't just sit out all or most negative counts, or you will be toast in short order.
You know it's funny, no mid shoe entry (NMSE) was big in AC and still big in other jurisdictions, but I don't see much of it in Vegas. If anything there are a small number of places that have a rule where you have to bet table minimum if entering mid-shoe. But not many. If you think about it, it is a really bad policy for casinos. An 8 deck game can take up to 20 minutes to get through a shoe, especially with 4-5 players and side bet(s). That is a long time to expect someone to wait. Gamblers want to get their action down. You tell them they have to wait 15-20 minutes and they probably are on to something else.
Here is a slight correlation that jbjb could be Ibeatyouraces. I know for a fact Ibeatyouraces hates anything Bible Related.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
I started up the conversation here...
https://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sh...-Thread/page79
and these guys got into a serious debate about the topic on this thread...
https://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sh...-Thread/page84
I'd be interested in watching you guys duke it out around the time Detroit celebrates the Birth of The Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Yung
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
Matthew 23.12. IMO There is no better verse that describes casino life in the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by monet