Guidelines for AP play on Buffalo Diamond slots

[QUOTE=mickeycrimm;109557]

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Originally Posted by aplowroller

I've played at $4.. 24 19 57... 565 spins until first wheel

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I have my own stats for all four levels of Buffalo Diamond. Everything I discuss here I'm using my own stats. On the $4 level you are taking a huge drop between wheels, 60.72%. So the return is just 39.28% until you hit a wheel. That means extremely high variance.

The wheel frequency is 126. So you went 565 spins to hit a wheel. That's about 4 and a half cycles which is a very infrequent occurrence. You got the shaft on that particular play.

Would I have played a 24/19/57? Let's see

24 X 1.49% = 35.76%
19 X .87% = 16.53%
57 X .18% = 10.26%
Main Game = 39.28%
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Total 101.83%



I forgot to add in the meter rate here, 3.9% since I'm most likely going to play until I hit the 2X.

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Originally Posted by Ozzy

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Originally Posted by kuma

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That 3x is insane, just shows how volatile these are. I seen the 4x at 352 before.

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What if this were a 160 play? This is what it would look like:

12 X .0074 = 8.88%
217 X .00236 = 51.2%
53 X .0018 = 9.54%
Main Game 62.1%
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Total 131.72%

The meter speed add on would be 5.2%.

[QUOTE=Ozzy;108449]

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Originally Posted by kuma

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This is what it looks like on the 250 level:

12 X .0123 = 14.76%
217 X .0026 = 56.4%
53 X .0022 = 11.66%
Main Game = 56.34%
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Total = 139.16%

The 3 X meter speed add on is 5.9%

If you notice I have different decimals for all four bet levels. Thats because all the bet levels have their own unique configurations. How is a decimal arrived at?

The decimal represents the value of 1 free game. On the 75 level the decimal for a 2X free game is .0059.

Wheel freq. = 132.68
You will hit the 2X every 4.24 wheels. This was derived by collecting stats on hitting 500 wheels.
So 2X freq. is 132.68 X 4.24 = 645.38 regular games.

The value of a 2X free game is 3.817. This was determined by collecting stats on several thousand 2X free games.

To get the decimal you divide the value of a 2X free game, 3.817, by 645.38 regular games.

3.817/645.38 = .005914

I rounded it down to .0059 for ease of use.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

If you notice I have different decimals for all four bet levels. Thats because all the bet levels have their own unique configurations. How is a decimal arrived at?

The decimal represents the value of 1 free game. On the 75 level the decimal for a 2X free game is .0059.

Wheel freq. = 132.68
You will hit the 2X every 4.24 wheels. This was derived by collecting stats on hitting 500 wheels.
So 2X freq. is 132.68 X 4.24 = 645.38 regular games.

The value of a 2X free game is 3.817. This was determined by collecting stats on several thousand 2X free games.

To get the decimal you divide the value of a 2X free game, 3.817, by 645.38 regular games.

3.817/645.38 = .005914

I rounded it down to .0059 for ease of use.

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Good stuff Mickey!

Thank you for posting that!

Back in February I hit 3x on 75 cent at around 205. I got it at 195. I was very happy.

One of the other interesting things Mickey posted in the past was the “banking” or cost of playing the game at higher levels. Which is why the numbers and his decimals are different for each level.

Unlike a normal slot that would go 75-150-225-300, you pay more on the higher bets. 75-160-250-400. So you are paying an extra $1 per spin at $4 and still only getting 4x the base pay on winners.

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Originally Posted by Ex-AP

Here is a good tweet on BD: https://mobile.twitter.com/PotatoAdv...34069249327106

“ While I'd love for you to tell me what I have wrong, you still have a relatively small amount of data to pull from comparatively, so I'd question its accuracy. Also, if you tracked your data similar to Mickey, its inherently false since he combined 1x bonus spins into the base.”

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Ex-ap has made the repeated assertion that my combining the 1X free games with the main game spins is the wrong way to do things. But he did not point out the correct way to do it and why it is correct to do it that way.

So I am challenging ex-ap to tell us why it is the wrong way to do it and then give us the correct way to do it....and explain to us why it is the correct way.

I won't hold my breath until we get an answer.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Ex-AP

Here is a good tweet on BD: https://mobile.twitter.com/PotatoAdv...34069249327106

“ While I'd love for you to tell me what I have wrong, you still have a relatively small amount of data to pull from comparatively, so I'd question its accuracy. Also, if you tracked your data similar to Mickey, its inherently false since he combined 1x bonus spins into the base.”

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Ex-ap has made the repeated assertion that my combining the 1X free games with the main game spins is the wrong way to do things. But he did not point out the correct way to do it and why it is correct to do it that way.

So I am challenging ex-ap to tell us why it is the wrong way to do it and then give us the correct way to do it....and explain to us why it is the correct way.

I won't hold my breath until we get an answer.

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Great stuff Mickey. Next move by Ex-Crement will be to wait a little while and then gaslight any mistakes he made with his incessant vitriol.

Funny that some claim @mickeycrimm is wrong. My real world profit on the game says he is correct. Thank you Mickey

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Originally Posted by radicalwin

Funny that some claim @mickeycrimm is wrong. My real world profit on the game says he is correct. Thank you Mickey

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Thanks, radicalwin. Tracking the BD's was a pain in the ass because of so many different things that had to be tracked.

1. I had to track the amount of money I put in the machine.
2. I used the slot card to count spins.
3. I had to track the number of wheels I caught. This was easy enough to do. I simply wrote 1X or 2X, etc in my notebook when I caught a wheel.
4. I had to track the number of free games initially awarded in 2X, 3X, 4X free game mode.
5. I had to track how much those free games payed.
6.When the play was over I still had work to do.

Say I put a $500 ticket in the machine to chase a 2X on 50 at the 75 level until I hit it. The stats might say I made 575 spins, I was awarded 59 free games at 2X, the free games payed $172 (229 units), the cashout was $532.

Subtracting the $172 from $532 told me I spun the ticket down to $360 to hit the 2X. That meant that the 575 spins cost $140/187 units ($500 minus $360).


That 187 divided by the number of spins, 575, told me the drop was 32.5%. Subtracting 32.5% from 1 meant the combined return of the regular spins plus the 1X free games was 67.5%

If I would have tracked the regular free spins and 1X free spins separately it would have added a ton of work. I would have to stop every time I caught a wheel to log in the 1X pays. But I asked myself "do I really need that information?" The answer is NO. Because I would just have to add them together anyway. Tracking them separately would not have changed the result.

While playing I had my notebook laying on the machine with an open page where I made a mark in a column everytime a 2X, 3X, 4X diamond landed on the 5th reel.

Then it was a matter of using running totals on the stats as the plays added up.

So it was a lot of work to track the BD's.

MickyCrimm, this is my first post and was impressed with your post regarding Buffalo Diamond stats. I have been in gaming for over 50 years, back in the days when the machines were mechanical and have been trying to get information on hold percentages on the gulf coast. Buffalo Diamond is the main slot machine I am interested in knowing about. I wonder if there is a way we could get together, other than on this site to discuss other gambling.

This is Barney

Is that you Kewl

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Originally Posted by Littleray

MickyCrimm, this is my first post and was impressed with your post regarding Buffalo Diamond stats. I have been in gaming for over 50 years, back in the days when the machines were mechanical and have been trying to get information on hold percentages on the gulf coast. Buffalo Diamond is the main slot machine I am interested in knowing about. I wonder if there is a way we could get together, other than on this site to discuss other gambling.

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Sorry, don't do meetups. I'll be glad to answer any questions thru this site. Buffalo Diamonds is a shared revenue game so most likely no higher payback than high 80's. My stats put the 75 level at 87%.

Some believe that the casino or manufacturer routinely lower the paybacks of these vulturable games after they have been in the casino for awhile. And the cause for lowering the payback is the knowledgeable players profiting from the game. I'm not in that click.

Why would they lower a payback that is already down in the high 80's? The house trying to outwit the hustlers causes ploppies to quit playing the game. Their money disappears fast enough as is. The one thing ploppies notice is how fast their money is disappearing. Lowering the payback causes them to quit playing the game.

The house is already making good money on the game. There's no need to downgrade the payback.

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Originally Posted by aplowroller

My last $4 buffalo diamond took 565 spins to hit the first wheel... down $1600 before I could blink

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Welcome to Buffalo Diamond!

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Originally Posted by Ex-AP

Here is a good tweet on BD: https://mobile.twitter.com/PotatoAdv...34069249327106

“ While I'd love for you to tell me what I have wrong, you still have a relatively small amount of data to pull from comparatively, so I'd question its accuracy. Also, if you tracked your data similar to Mickey, its inherently false since he combined 1x bonus spins into the base.”

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I know that dude. He's in my general region... He's semi-unstable with anger management problems... His primary gig is running cards at Harrah's. He was fishing for info on buffalo. Now his twitter is deleted... He will show up again with another name and let us all know how dumb we are... Just like you're doing...

I'll just keep laughing at him all the way to the bank.

Hey Mickey... One of the problems I had with BD was the variance in the bonus spin value. We've all seen 3 sunsets change dozens of blank spins from a sure beating into a hand-pay...

Considering how rare those sunsets connect, I knew getting 20,000+ bonus spins for each bet level / color combination would take forever... That got me started on making a couple of models to marry the bonus spins in different ways across bet levels and bonus types. As it turned out, a couple of those models were better at predicting the average value including the next bonus spins than the point estimates I had from isolated bet level / color combinations. I actually cant take full credit... A cohort of mine discovered the relationship...

The only reason I mention this is because with one of those models having actual values on the 1x would have been useful. Unfortunately I didn't have it because like you I was focused on exit points, the drop to get there, and the value of the exit point. The good news is that even though I'm sure that my model is not perfect, its within 0.15 bets per spin of the one that I cannot validate due to the absence of the 1x average value. It is also now within 0.1 bets per spin of actual results now that I'm up to 121K bonus spins observed on all color / bet combos except the 1.60 3x.

net / net... Its a non-issue now that the data set is big enough but I do wonder if i would have gotten there faster recording 1x values... I'm convinced that there are multiple ways to skin this cat.

Now the weakest part of the model is wheel observations.

BD is a crazy game but its been a lot of fun to work on.

Interesting

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Originally Posted by Prozema

Hey Mickey... One of the problems I had with BD was the variance in the bonus spin value. We've all seen 3 sunsets change dozens of blank spins from a sure beating into a hand-pay...

Considering how rare those sunsets connect, I knew getting 20,000+ bonus spins for each bet level / color combination would take forever... That got me started on making a couple of models to marry the bonus spins in different ways across bet levels and bonus types. As it turned out, a couple of those models were better at predicting the average value including the next bonus spins than the point estimates I had from isolated bet level / color combinations. I actually cant take full credit... A cohort of mine discovered the relationship...

The only reason I mention this is because with one of those models having actual values on the 1x would have been useful. Unfortunately I didn't have it because like you I was focused on exit points, the drop to get there, and the value of the exit point. The good news is that even though I'm sure that my model is not perfect, its within 0.15 bets per spin of the one that I cannot validate due to the absence of the 1x average value. It is also now within 0.1 bets per spin of actual results now that I'm up to 121K bonus spins observed on all color / bet combos except the 1.60 3x.

net / net... Its a non-issue now that the data set is big enough but I do wonder if i would have gotten there faster recording 1x values... I'm convinced that there are multiple ways to skin this cat.

Now the weakest part of the model is wheel observations.

BD is a crazy game but its been a lot of fun to work on.

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Pro, I have to think that you are now the one with the most knowledge and experience at Buffalo Diamonds.

I have to think that gaming is smart gambling, with the latter being an oxymoron, or juxtaposing.

I googled the IQ of the average gambler.

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If 100 is the average IQ for a normal person in society, then there is your answer. Most compulsive gamblers are normal, every day folk, with one sad vice. Though honestly, the extremes of the bell curve for intelligence may be where you find most gamblers. As a casino that is practically spitting distance from Brown University, I’ve seen some very intelligent people come in and play in an amazingly non intelligent manner. Conversely, I’ve seen some barely literate human beings master basic strategy, and actually advise new players on probability and odds.

Just this past week I had to explain to a Mathematics major that no, that game is not rigged just because he lost 8 hands in a row. He apparently missed the section of statistics that covered sample sizes. Or user bias. But hey, that diploma will make up for all that.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-averag...ling-addiction

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As a recovering compulsive gambler, I have met thousands of self-professed gambling addicts. While many owned and operated successful businesses or held high positions in the private or public sectors, nearly all of them demonstrated uncanny abilities to accumulate vast amounts of money and manipulate others. Personally, I think most of us were too smart for our own good, prolonging our addiction — causing more harm to ourselves, loved ones, friends, employers, and others.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-averag...ling-addiction

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Now I wonder what the average intelligence is of a so-called AP.

Ha, going by the anagrams, for fun, Prozema ---> map zero.

If only there were an IQ test for swearing, trolling and like, for Mickey.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Prozema

Hey Mickey... One of the problems I had with BD was the variance in the bonus spin value. We've all seen 3 sunsets change dozens of blank spins from a sure beating into a hand-pay...

Considering how rare those sunsets connect, I knew getting 20,000+ bonus spins for each bet level / color combination would take forever... That got me started on making a couple of models to marry the bonus spins in different ways across bet levels and bonus types. As it turned out, a couple of those models were better at predicting the average value including the next bonus spins than the point estimates I had from isolated bet level / color combinations. I actually cant take full credit... A cohort of mine discovered the relationship...

The only reason I mention this is because with one of those models having actual values on the 1x would have been useful. Unfortunately I didn't have it because like you I was focused on exit points, the drop to get there, and the value of the exit point. The good news is that even though I'm sure that my model is not perfect, its within 0.15 bets per spin of the one that I cannot validate due to the absence of the 1x average value. It is also now within 0.1 bets per spin of actual results now that I'm up to 121K bonus spins observed on all color / bet combos except the 1.60 3x.

net / net... Its a non-issue now that the data set is big enough but I do wonder if i would have gotten there faster recording 1x values... I'm convinced that there are multiple ways to skin this cat.

Now the weakest part of the model is wheel observations.

BD is a crazy game but its been a lot of fun to work on.

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Pro, I have to think that you are now the one with the most knowledge and experience at Buffalo Diamonds.

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Well... I needed something to do to kill time. My underwear modeling gigs have really slowed down since the pandemic took hold. ;-)

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Originally Posted by LMR

I have to think that gaming is smart gambling, with the latter being an oxymoron, or juxtaposing.

I googled the IQ of the average gambler.

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If 100 is the average IQ for a normal person in society, then there is your answer. Most compulsive gamblers are normal, every day folk, with one sad vice. Though honestly, the extremes of the bell curve for intelligence may be where you find most gamblers. As a casino that is practically spitting distance from Brown University, I’ve seen some very intelligent people come in and play in an amazingly non intelligent manner. Conversely, I’ve seen some barely literate human beings master basic strategy, and actually advise new players on probability and odds.

Just this past week I had to explain to a Mathematics major that no, that game is not rigged just because he lost 8 hands in a row. He apparently missed the section of statistics that covered sample sizes. Or user bias. But hey, that diploma will make up for all that.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-averag...ling-addiction

---

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As a recovering compulsive gambler, I have met thousands of self-professed gambling addicts. While many owned and operated successful businesses or held high positions in the private or public sectors, nearly all of them demonstrated uncanny abilities to accumulate vast amounts of money and manipulate others. Personally, I think most of us were too smart for our own good, prolonging our addiction — causing more harm to ourselves, loved ones, friends, employers, and others.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-averag...ling-addiction

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Now I wonder what the average intelligence is of a so-called AP.

Ha, going by the anagrams, for fun, Prozema ---> map zero.

If only there were an IQ test for swearing, trolling and like, for Mickey.

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Keep thinking. You'll get it right eventually... Practice makes perfect.

Heard 2 aps at my home casino took a beating on a 250 4x that was 180. Lost over 4k

Variance is a mutha....

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Originally Posted by radicalwin

Heard 2 aps at my home casino took a beating on a 250 4x that was 180. Lost over 4k

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Sounds like it ran a little over 2 cycles. That could have been a lot worse.

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Originally Posted by Prozema

Keep thinking. You'll get it right eventually... Practice makes perfect.

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Hmm. Mothers, underwear, getting it right, and beatings. Sadism? Must be masochism.

How's this for a start?

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Originally Posted by Prozema

Well... I needed something to do to kill time. My underwear modeling gigs have really slowed down since the pandemic took hold. ;-)

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I think I may have seen you in a recent catalog I received. The underwear was the Wide Load brand - the ones with the red tag in the back.

Mickey, thanks for your feedback. You said that on the 75 level the base game is 64.2% and that the payback is high 80's, probably 87% payback. How does the base game become 64.2% instead of 87%?

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Originally Posted by Littleray

Mickey, thanks for your feedback. You said that on the 75 level the base game is 64.2% and that the payback is high 80's, probably 87% payback. How does the base game become 64.2% instead of 87%?

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The base game payback doesn’t include the payback for the 2X, 3X, 4X free games. My stats say the game is around 87% but I never said I’m 100% absolutely sure it’s 87%.

Thanks again Mickey. I understand this is your stats and not to take it as an absolute. I am in the process of making a chart, which I thought I had it figured out on the 75 level, however I keep coming up with a problem. When I multiply all the 2,3 4x's, do I add that to the 80-87%? If not, what number of percent do I add it to?

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Littleray

Mickey, thanks for your feedback. You said that on the 75 level the base game is 64.2% and that the payback is high 80's, probably 87% payback. How does the base game become 64.2% instead of 87%?

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The base game payback doesn’t include the payback for the 2X, 3X, 4X free games. My stats say the game is around 87% but I never said I’m 100% absolutely sure it’s 87%.

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Just learning how to use this site! Please read my previous blog.

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Originally Posted by Littleray

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Littleray

Mickey, thanks for your feedback. You said that on the 75 level the base game is 64.2% and that the payback is high 80's, probably 87% payback. How does the base game become 64.2% instead of 87%?

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The base game payback doesn’t include the payback for the 2X, 3X, 4X free games. My stats say the game is around 87% but I never said I’m 100% absolutely sure it’s 87%.

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Just learning how to use this site! Please read my previous blog.

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Thanks. I understand this is your stats and not to take it as an absolute. I have been in the process of making a chart to see what the green should be for a slight win, thought I had it figured out on the 75 level, however I keep coming up with a problem. When I multiply all the 2,3 4x's, do I add that to the 80-87%? If not, what percentage do I add it to? Also, you posted the hit frequency for the $4 at 126. Do you know the hit frequency for the 75, 1.60 and 2.50?

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Originally Posted by Littleray

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Originally Posted by Littleray

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

The base game payback doesn’t include the payback for the 2X, 3X, 4X free games. My stats say the game is around 87% but I never said I’m 100% absolutely sure it’s 87%.

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Just learning how to use this site! Please read my previous blog.

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Thanks. I understand this is your stats and not to take it as an absolute. I have been in the process of making a chart to see what the green should be for a slight win, thought I had it figured out on the 75 level, however I keep coming up with a problem. When I multiply all the 2,3 4x's, do I add that to the 80-87%? If not, what percentage do I add it to? Also, you posted the hit frequency for the $4 at 126. Do you know the hit frequency for the 75, 1.60 and 2.50?

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I apparently got brain locked from being at my computer too long and making this harder than it was. I got it now. Thank you for all your good blogs and responses. Hope to see more information from you in the future as me and my wife have been players for many years.

They have this game in casinos where local law there requires at least 87% on each machine.

Could it be higher? Doubt it in my market. I think most penny machines at my main casino are 87% based on what I have seen.

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Originally Posted by radicalwin

They have this game in casinos where local law there requires at least 87% on each machine.

Could it be higher? Doubt it in my market. I think most penny machines at my main casino are 87% based on what I have seen.

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It could absolutely be higher or lower. Its not unusual for there to be 7 or more possibilities with paybacks ranging form 85% to 95%+.

What is the hit frequency of the 75, 1.60 and 2.50?

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by aplowroller

I've played at $4.. 24 19 57... 565 spins until first wheel

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I have my own stats for all four levels of Buffalo Diamond. Everything I discuss here I'm using my own stats. On the $4 level you are taking a huge drop between wheels, 60.72%. So the return is just 39.28% until you hit a wheel. That means extremely high variance.

The wheel frequency is 126. So you went 565 spins to hit a wheel. That's about 4 and a half cycles which is a very infrequent occurrence. You got the shaft on that particular play.

Would I have played a 24/19/57? Let's see

24 X 1.49% = 35.76%
19 X .87% = 16.53%
57 X .18% = 10.26%
Main Game = 39.28%
---------------------------
Total 101.83%

It's a marginal play at best. I would have to have some other incentive to play it or else I would prefer it to be a little higher.

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Do you know the hit frequency on the 2.50 and 1.60?

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Originally Posted by Littleray

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by aplowroller

I've played at $4.. 24 19 57... 565 spins until first wheel

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I have my own stats for all four levels of Buffalo Diamond. Everything I discuss here I'm using my own stats. On the $4 level you are taking a huge drop between wheels, 60.72%. So the return is just 39.28% until you hit a wheel. That means extremely high variance.

The wheel frequency is 126. So you went 565 spins to hit a wheel. That's about 4 and a half cycles which is a very infrequent occurrence. You got the shaft on that particular play.

Would I have played a 24/19/57? Let's see

24 X 1.49% = 35.76%
19 X .87% = 16.53%
57 X .18% = 10.26%
Main Game = 39.28%
---------------------------
Total 101.83%

It's a marginal play at best. I would have to have some other incentive to play it or else I would prefer it to be a little higher.

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Do you know the hit frequency on the 2.50 and 1.60?

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If you mean how often you catch the wheel my stats show 124 spins on 160 and 125 on 250.

@mickeycrimm : Thanks the detail Analysis of BD at various bet levels. This is very helpful. Earlier in a thread you mentioned a meter rate of 5% while focusing on hitting 3X for $1.60 bet level. Is there a meter rate associated w $4.00 bet level ? Could you detail how you determine meter rate and how does that factor in for calculating EV if I want to focus hitting 2x or 3X?

The components that make up the total return on a spin banking game is 1) the return from the reels, 2) the return from the banked spins, and 3) the meter speed.

1. The return from the reels (aka the main game) is calculated by subtracting the amount lost divided by the coin in from 1.
Example: You took 100 $1 spins and lost $20. That's 1-(20/100) = .8 That's an 80% return to player.

2. The return from the banked spins is calculated by dividing the value of the event by the frequency of the event.
Example: For buffalo diamond let's say you trigger the wheel every 123 spins and it lands on the 2x 23.7% of the time. 123/.237 = 520 spins to hit the 2x. That's the frequency. If a 2x spin pays 3.6 bets per banked spin that means each banked spin is worth about 0.69% (3.6/520). To get the total banked you would multiply 0.69% by the total number banked.

3. The meter speed is value you realize from the rise of the meters while you are playing the game. i.e. if you sit down and the 2x is at 50 and you expect to take 520 spins before it hits, it's unlikely that you will hit it at 50. You calculate the meter speed by taking the value of the event and dividing it by the frequency of the event that will increment the meter.
Example: In Buffalo Diamond collecting a diamond in reel 5 increments the meter. Let's say that lands every 61 spins. 3.6 / 61 = 5.9%

It's important to remember not to double count things. Example: In #1 you need to subtract out any bonuses you hit to get the coin in for the main game.

If you decide to chase a 2x, you will realize the full value of the 2x meter speed. You will also realize some small portion of the value of the 3x and 4x meter speed.
If you are going to chase a 3x, you will realize the full value of the 3x meter speed. You will also realize some portion of the value of the 2x and 4x meter speed. The 2x will be a large portion and the 4x will be a relatively small portion.
If you decide to chase a 4x (God help you) you will realize the full value of the 4x meter speed. You will also realize some portion of the value of the 2x and 3x meter speed.The 2x will be a large portion and the 3x will be a relatively small portion.

On the off chance your next question is going to be about handling meter speed value on combination plays where the value is spread across multiple meters you would compare the relative frequency of each event occurring and distribute the meter speed accordingly.
Example. If the 2x hits every 520 spins and the 3x hits every 2080 spins you are going to hit 1 3x for every 4 2x... 5 events total. 1/5 = 20% of the 3x meter speed and 4/5 = 80% of the 2x meter speed.

I’ve seen a version where the denominations are .75/1.6/2.5/6.0 rather than .75/1.6/2.5/4.0.

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Originally Posted by mcap

I’ve seen a version where the denominations are .75/1.6/2.5/6.0 rather than .75/1.6/2.5/4.0.

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Thats the configuration at Soaring Eagle.

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Originally Posted by Prozema

The components that make up the total return on a spin banking game is 1) the return from the reels, 2) the return from the banked spins, and 3) the meter speed.

1. The return from the reels (aka the main game) is calculated by subtracting the amount lost divided by the coin in from 1.
Example: You took 100 $1 spins and lost $20. That's 1-(20/100) = .8 That's an 80% return to player.

2. The return from the banked spins is calculated by dividing the value of the event by the frequency of the event.
Example: For buffalo diamond let's say you trigger the wheel every 123 spins and it lands on the 2x 23.7% of the time. 123/.237 = 520 spins to hit the 2x. That's the frequency. If a 2x spin pays 3.6 bets per banked spin that means each banked spin is worth about 0.69% (3.6/520). To get the total banked you would multiply 0.69% by the total number banked.

3. The meter speed is value you realize from the rise of the meters while you are playing the game. i.e. if you sit down and the 2x is at 50 and you expect to take 520 spins before it hits, it's unlikely that you will hit it at 50. You calculate the meter speed by taking the value of the event and dividing it by the frequency of the event that will increment the meter.
Example: In Buffalo Diamond collecting a diamond in reel 5 increments the meter. Let's say that lands every 61 spins. 3.6 / 61 = 5.9%

It's important to remember not to double count things. Example: In #1 you need to subtract out any bonuses you hit to get the coin in for the main game.

If you decide to chase a 2x, you will realize the full value of the 2x meter speed. You will also realize some small portion of the value of the 3x and 4x meter speed.
If you are going to chase a 3x, you will realize the full value of the 3x meter speed. You will also realize some portion of the value of the 2x and 4x meter speed. The 2x will be a large portion and the 4x will be a relatively small portion.
If you decide to chase a 4x (God help you) you will realize the full value of the 4x meter speed. You will also realize some portion of the value of the 2x and 3x meter speed.The 2x will be a large portion and the 3x will be a relatively small portion.

On the off chance your next question is going to be about handling meter speed value on combination plays where the value is spread across multiple meters you would compare the relative frequency of each event occurring and distribute the meter speed accordingly.
Example. If the 2x hits every 520 spins and the 3x hits every 2080 spins you are going to hit 1 3x for every 4 2x... 5 events total. 1/5 = 20% of the 3x meter speed and 4/5 = 80% of the 2x meter speed.

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Thank you 🙏

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by mcap

I’ve seen a version where the denominations are .75/1.6/2.5/6.0 rather than .75/1.6/2.5/4.0.

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Thats the configuration at Soaring Eagle.

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One of the casinos here has the 6.00 rather than 4.00. What would be the multiplier for each diamond and the percentage of the 6.0?

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Originally Posted by Littleray

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcap

I’ve seen a version where the denominations are .75/1.6/2.5/6.0 rather than .75/1.6/2.5/4.0.

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Thats the configuration at Soaring Eagle.

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One of the casinos here has the 6.00 rather than 4.00. What would be the multiplier for each diamond and the percentage of the 6.0?

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I have no stats for the 600 level. But it's a possibility that the numbers are the same as 400.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Littleray

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Thats the configuration at Soaring Eagle.

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One of the casinos here has the 6.00 rather than 4.00. What would be the multiplier for each diamond and the percentage of the 6.0?

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I have no stats for the 600 level. But it's a possibility that the numbers are the same as 400.

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I have been wondering about this since I read on here about the $6 version. My questions were is it still just a 4 times multiplier, just like the $4? So now instead of $1 extra being paid into the bonus compared to .75, it’s an extra $3. Where does it go?

It’s seems like it would cost a hell of a lot of money to do the research on this, with a high probability of seldom if ever, finding playable numbers.

$4 is 4x the base bet. $6 is 6x the base bet.

I played $4 buffalo diamond at my local casino. I started at 11/39/53. It gave me green like about 6-8 times and then finally blue hits at 14/55/60. 3x 55 base games paid absit $350. I had invested $2800 in the play and cashed out with $1100. Huge loss.

So here's my question : should I have played 14/15/60 and hope when blue hits again (hopefully sooner this time ) and give a better payout ?
Although, 14/15/60 is not really a play 55 3X paid sub optimal. Is there some kinda frequency when the 3 sunset symbol occur during Free games - I’m curious ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kumar

I played $4 buffalo diamond at my local casino. I started at 11/39/53.

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Only question is why?

Consider yourself lucky.

The answer to your question is in this thread. Do the math.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kumar

I played $4 buffalo diamond at my local casino. I started at 11/39/53. It gave me green like about 6-8 times and then finally blue hits at 14/55/60. 3x 55 base games paid absit $350. I had invested $2800 in the play and cashed out with $1100. Huge loss.

So here's my question : should I have played 14/15/60 and hope when blue hits again (hopefully sooner this time ) and give a better payout ?
Although, 14/15/60 is not really a play 55 3X paid sub optimal. Is there some kinda frequency when the 3 sunset symbol occur during Free games - I’m curious ?

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You were on an either/or play. Either the 3X or the 4X. It's a marginal play. About 99% plus about 5% meter movement. The average to catch either the 3X or the 4X is about 4 wheels so it looks like it took you about 2 cycles to hit it. With an average 61% drop along with some variance it can get expensive.

Then you got stiffed on the free spins. 55 free spins is worth about $1100 average. Of course, that's with the big hits like the buffalos on each end with the multipliers in the middle averaged in. There's a lot of variance here too. Those buffalo hits don't come around all that often.

So you took it in the shorts on this play. One of the problems with the $4 plays is they don't come around all that often. So if you take a tough beat it's a long time before you have a chance to get your money back.

The 14/15/60 in only about 87%. Forget it.

Thanks Mickey and the Boz.
I strongly believe that there’s a frequency of the 3 connected sunset symbols that are a rare occurrence during free games.
I’m not so sure but I believe the frequency could be independent of 1x,2x,3X or 4x but more like it occurs once every zzz free games. I would love to hear thoughts / observations ?
The reason I want to press on this is if there is a certain frequency, then it could be a game changer and can turn a potential loss into a win or prevent huge losses.
On several occasions, I have seen ploppies playing and these connected symbols come when blue or green meter is at reset or near reset on $4 bet and it’s a Handpay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kumar

Thanks Mickey and the Boz.
I strongly believe that there’s a frequency of the 3 connected sunset symbols that are a rare occurrence during free games.
I’m not so sure but I believe the frequency could be independent of 1x,2x,3X or 4x but more like it occurs once every zzz free games. I would love to hear thoughts / observations ?
The reason I want to press on this is if there is a certain frequency, then it could be a game changer and can turn a potential loss into a win or prevent huge losses.
On several occasions, I have seen ploppies playing and these connected symbols come when blue or green meter is at reset or near reset on $4 bet and it’s a Handpay.

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There is definitely a frequency of occurrence for the sunsets. But it is still random. It's not like you could countdown to time the occurrence. Just like anything else you can run 10 cycles out.

The most number of spins without hitting a wheel bonus on $4 that I know of is 1202 spins. How would you like to be that guy?

So say the triple sunset frequency is 1 in 2500. You could get one on the first spin or not until the 25,000th spin. Knowing the frequencies of everything can let you know where the value lies. But it is worthless knowledge for exploitation when it comes to timing on a game like that.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Kumar

I played $4 buffalo diamond at my local casino. I started at 11/39/53. It gave me green like about 6-8 times and then finally blue hits at 14/55/60. 3x 55 base games paid absit $350. I had invested $2800 in the play and cashed out with $1100. Huge loss.

So here's my question : should I have played 14/15/60 and hope when blue hits again (hopefully sooner this time ) and give a better payout ?
Although, 14/15/60 is not really a play 55 3X paid sub optimal. Is there some kinda frequency when the 3 sunset symbol occur during Free games - I’m curious ?

---

You were on an either/or play. Either the 3X or the 4X. It's a marginal play. About 99% plus about 5% meter movement. The average to catch either the 3X or the 4X is about 4 wheels so it looks like it took you about 2 cycles to hit it. With an average 61% drop along with some variance it can get expensive.

Then you got stiffed on the free spins. 55 free spins is worth about $1100 average. Of course, that's with the big hits like the buffalos on each end with the multipliers in the middle averaged in. There's a lot of variance here too. Those buffalo hits don't come around all that often.

So you took it in the shorts on this play. One of the problems with the $4 plays is they don't come around all that often. So if you take a tough beat it's a long time before you have a chance to get your money back.

The 14/15/60 in only about 87%. Forget it.

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For once I semi disagree with Mick. While it’s a marginal play, I still think the variance on this game only makes it a play for someone with a HUGE bankroll, willing and able to survive the ups and downs. And believes they will find enough similar situations over time to justify it.

Yes the math is the math but playing numbers like this are still gambling. Granted less than the average slot, but still gambling.

But I believe Mick was saying the same thing. And he, and Max are far more knowledgeable than me.

And I do believe BD has been the demise of many a wannabe “AP”.

And I say this because we all can post pictures of 1000x winners on this game and we all had way under expectation bonuses like you did.

My advise is find other opportunities, don’t overthink BD and only play it when it’s a big advantage. And know even in those cases, you can get raped.

It comes with the territory.

"if it ain't a must hit, then it's not a must hit". Not only does the wheel not have to hit after a certain number of base game spins, but the multiplied banked games don't have to hit after a certain number of wheels. What a fiendish (but profitable) game. I wonder how many foreclosures have been caused by chasing the 4x banked games ;-) ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kumar

I played $4 buffalo diamond at my local casino. I started at 11/39/53. It gave me green like about 6-8 times and then finally blue hits at 14/55/60. 3x 55 base games paid absit $350. I had invested $2800 in the play and cashed out with $1100. Huge loss.

So here's my question : should I have played 14/15/60 and hope when blue hits again (hopefully sooner this time ) and give a better payout ?
Although, 14/15/60 is not really a play 55 3X paid sub optimal. Is there some kinda frequency when the 3 sunset symbol occur during Free games - I’m curious ?

---

You were on an either/or play. Either the 3X or the 4X. It's a marginal play. About 99% plus about 5% meter movement. The average to catch either the 3X or the 4X is about 4 wheels so it looks like it took you about 2 cycles to hit it. With an average 61% drop along with some variance it can get expensive.

Then you got stiffed on the free spins. 55 free spins is worth about $1100 average. Of course, that's with the big hits like the buffalos on each end with the multipliers in the middle averaged in. There's a lot of variance here too. Those buffalo hits don't come around all that often.

So you took it in the shorts on this play. One of the problems with the $4 plays is they don't come around all that often. So if you take a tough beat it's a long time before you have a chance to get your money back.

The 14/15/60 in only about 87%. Forget it.

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I'm really close to your 99% number on $4 11, 39, 53 sans all meter movement but I'm coming up with a much higher meter speed than 5%.
I'd think if you were playing that as an either / or you would get 87% of the 2x meter rise, 79% of the 3x meter rise, and 21% of the 4x meter rise on average... On the off chance the 4x hits first, it's pretty likely the 2x / 3x will still be a play...
I'm thinking you omitted the 2x meter rise maybe and are just counting the 3x meter rise?

Totally agree 14, 15, 60 is a dud.

The game does a decent job at protecting it's self with variance.
A lot of things can go wrong in with BD...

- The main reels can pay bad.
- The coins can go missing.
- The wheels can land poorly.
- The bonus game can pay bad.

Of course all of those things can go the other way as well. 2 cycles to the bad is nothing with this game... Plan for 5-6 and you'll be in good shape most of the time.

Chasing a $2.50 3x isn't even the same ball park as a OM machine you are going to spin 3 times are be done with even if the OM machine is the one in the high limit room. You can drop your cash requirement quite a bit by playing combos and not chasing stand alone blue and purples... $5,000 is enough if you do that but you can have some close calls and should have a backup cash plan for WHEN (not if) things turn really bad.

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Originally Posted by Prozema

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kumar

I played $4 buffalo diamond at my local casino. I started at 11/39/53. It gave me green like about 6-8 times and then finally blue hits at 14/55/60. 3x 55 base games paid absit $350. I had invested $2800 in the play and cashed out with $1100. Huge loss.

So here's my question : should I have played 14/15/60 and hope when blue hits again (hopefully sooner this time ) and give a better payout ?
Although, 14/15/60 is not really a play 55 3X paid sub optimal. Is there some kinda frequency when the 3 sunset symbol occur during Free games - I’m curious ?

---

You were on an either/or play. Either the 3X or the 4X. It's a marginal play. About 99% plus about 5% meter movement. The average to catch either the 3X or the 4X is about 4 wheels so it looks like it took you about 2 cycles to hit it. With an average 61% drop along with some variance it can get expensive.

Then you got stiffed on the free spins. 55 free spins is worth about $1100 average. Of course, that's with the big hits like the buffalos on each end with the multipliers in the middle averaged in. There's a lot of variance here too. Those buffalo hits don't come around all that often.

So you took it in the shorts on this play. One of the problems with the $4 plays is they don't come around all that often. So if you take a tough beat it's a long time before you have a chance to get your money back.

The 14/15/60 in only about 87%. Forget it.

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I'm really close to your 99% number on $4 11, 39, 53 sans all meter movement but I'm coming up with a much higher meter speed than 5%.
I'd think if you were playing that as an either / or you would get 87% of the 2x meter rise, 79% of the 3x meter rise, and 21% of the 4x meter rise on average... On the off chance the 4x hits first, it's pretty likely the 2x / 3x will still be a play...
I'm thinking you omitted the 2x meter rise maybe and are just counting the 3x meter rise?

Totally agree 14, 15, 60 is a dud.

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Yep, forgot to include the 2X meter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kumar

Thanks Mickey and the Boz.
I strongly believe that there’s a frequency of the 3 connected sunset symbols that are a rare occurrence during free games.
I’m not so sure but I believe the frequency could be independent of 1x,2x,3X or 4x but more like it occurs once every zzz free games. I would love to hear thoughts / observations ?
The reason I want to press on this is if there is a certain frequency, then it could be a game changer and can turn a potential loss into a win or prevent huge losses.
On several occasions, I have seen ploppies playing and these connected symbols come when blue or green meter is at reset or near reset on $4 bet and it’s a Handpay.

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True story, different game but same idea:

This weekend i actually saw 3 different ploppies hit Ainsworth $10k Majors in the $9100s. You wouldn’t want to start chasing those at $9100 because you saw this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kumar

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prozema

The components that make up the total return on a spin banking game is 1) the return from the reels, 2) the return from the banked spins, and 3) the meter speed.

1. The return from the reels (aka the main game) is calculated by subtracting the amount lost divided by the coin in from 1.
Example: You took 100 $1 spins and lost $20. That's 1-(20/100) = .8 That's an 80% return to player.

2. The return from the banked spins is calculated by dividing the value of the event by the frequency of the event.
Example: For buffalo diamond let's say you trigger the wheel every 123 spins and it lands on the 2x 23.7% of the time. 123/.237 = 520 spins to hit the 2x. That's the frequency. If a 2x spin pays 3.6 bets per banked spin that means each banked spin is worth about 0.69% (3.6/520). To get the total banked you would multiply 0.69% by the total number banked.

3. The meter speed is value you realize from the rise of the meters while you are playing the game. i.e. if you sit down and the 2x is at 50 and you expect to take 520 spins before it hits, it's unlikely that you will hit it at 50. You calculate the meter speed by taking the value of the event and dividing it by the frequency of the event that will increment the meter.
Example: In Buffalo Diamond collecting a diamond in reel 5 increments the meter. Let's say that lands every 61 spins. 3.6 / 61 = 5.9%

It's important to remember not to double count things. Example: In #1 you need to subtract out any bonuses you hit to get the coin in for the main game.

If you decide to chase a 2x, you will realize the full value of the 2x meter speed. You will also realize some small portion of the value of the 3x and 4x meter speed.
If you are going to chase a 3x, you will realize the full value of the 3x meter speed. You will also realize some portion of the value of the 2x and 4x meter speed. The 2x will be a large portion and the 4x will be a relatively small portion.
If you decide to chase a 4x (God help you) you will realize the full value of the 4x meter speed. You will also realize some portion of the value of the 2x and 3x meter speed.The 2x will be a large portion and the 3x will be a relatively small portion.

On the off chance your next question is going to be about handling meter speed value on combination plays where the value is spread across multiple meters you would compare the relative frequency of each event occurring and distribute the meter speed accordingly.
Example. If the 2x hits every 520 spins and the 3x hits every 2080 spins you are going to hit 1 3x for every 4 2x... 5 events total. 1/5 = 20% of the 3x meter speed and 4/5 = 80% of the 2x meter speed.

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Thank you ��

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You're welcome. Good luck out there.
Keep in mind, Buffalo is a fairly volatile game and you need a fairly significant data set before the model start stabilizing and the "go" number doesn't change every play. At that point the analysis starts to become useful. That happened for me at around 75,000 spins per bet level.

Many hustlers don't seem to know what good numbers are for the $4 bet. More plays for those of us who do.

Is the average value of a banked spin (adjusted for the bet size) relatively consistent across all denominations? Or does it seem to vary significantly across bet levels? E.g. is a banked 4x spin worth more at say $0.75 or $4.00?

I just abandoned tying the value of a banked spin based on the $1.60 bet level. I'm now modeling each separately. The 1.60 is just too far off.

Question - if you're going after a play on either the 3x or 4x (or a combined play), don't the reset amounts factor into the meter rate? For example, if I'm chasing a 3x on the $0.75 bet level, then I'm expecting to hit about 4-5 2x wheels before the 3x hits. Each 2x hit after the first gives me a "free" 7 spins from reset, so that's 21-28 extra spins overall.

I expect this has a bigger impact on the $4.00 level since every wheel is at least 2x, and the reset amounts are higher.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlayerX

Question - if you're going after a play on either the 3x or 4x (or a combined play), don't the reset amounts factor into the meter rate? For example, if I'm chasing a 3x on the $0.75 bet level, then I'm expecting to hit about 4-5 2x wheels before the 3x hits. Each 2x hit after the first gives me a "free" 7 spins from reset, so that's 21-28 extra spins overall.

I expect this has a bigger impact on the $4.00 level since every wheel is at least 2x, and the reset amounts are higher.

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The main game RTP will also have a huge impact on the $4.00 level compared to the others. You can't relate the stats on lower denoms to the $4.00 game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kuma

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlayerX

Question - if you're going after a play on either the 3x or 4x (or a combined play), don't the reset amounts factor into the meter rate? For example, if I'm chasing a 3x on the $0.75 bet level, then I'm expecting to hit about 4-5 2x wheels before the 3x hits. Each 2x hit after the first gives me a "free" 7 spins from reset, so that's 21-28 extra spins overall.

I expect this has a bigger impact on the $4.00 level since every wheel is at least 2x, and the reset amounts are higher.

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The main game RTP will also have a huge impact on the $4.00 level compared to the others. You can't relate the stats on lower denoms to the $4.00 game.

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Sure - but while the numbers may be different for the $4.00 level (or any level), the main idea is that you'd still expect to hit multiple 2x wheels before you get the 3x/4x. I'm still going through the numbers from my own spins, but I assume that's true for every bet level. The only thing that changes is the exact frequency, so you may expect 5 wheels on $0.75, but only 2 or 3 at $4.00. Either way, each time you hit a 2x wheel during the play, the reset puts spins in the bank that you didn't get from a diamond on the reel.

The increment is unrelated to the number of spins currently banked.
- The current banked value is how much the spins are worth that are already there.
- The increment is the value of the additional spins you will bank while you are playing the game.

When I build slot models I use the number of games at reset times the value of each game into the RTP calculation. On longer plays (like chasing a 3x or a 4x) I will take 2x value and set it to reset regardless of what appears on the machine. If the game is negative with the 2x value at reset AND it is positive with the actual banked value of the 2x spins you have a combo that includes the 2x.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prozema

The increment is unrelated to the number of spins currently banked.
- The current banked value is how much the spins are worth that are already there.
- The increment is the value of the additional spins you will bank while you are playing the game.

When I build slot models I use the number of games at reset times the value of each game into the RTP calculation. On longer plays (like chasing a 3x or a 4x) I will take 2x value and set it to reset regardless of what appears on the machine. If the game is negative with the 2x value at reset AND it is positive with the actual banked value of the 2x spins you have a combo that includes the 2x.

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Thank you Prozema! I knew the answer to the posters question was something like this but was a little frustrated with myself because I couldn’t quite wrap my head around it exactly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prozema

The increment is unrelated to the number of spins currently banked.
- The current banked value is how much the spins are worth that are already there.
- The increment is the value of the additional spins you will bank while you are playing the game.

When I build slot models I use the number of games at reset times the value of each game into the RTP calculation. On longer plays (like chasing a 3x or a 4x) I will take 2x value and set it to reset regardless of what appears on the machine. If the game is negative with the 2x value at reset AND it is positive with the actual banked value of the 2x spins you have a combo that includes the 2x.

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Thank you Prozema! I knew the answer to the posters question was something like this but was a little frustrated with myself because I couldn’t quite wrap my head around it exactly.

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I think the op is trying to say that he is trying to use the number of resets in his model for the increment. I'm not saying you can't do it that way but I think it's more difficult. I've never sweated getting the RTP exactly right and as a result I'm sure I've made some bonehead moves. I figure as long as I'm not way off and I'm right most of the time it will all wash out in the end. IMHO it's kinda like penalty cards in VP. If you have to sweat fractional pennies, the edge is too thin.

Proz, just a quick thanks for all your work on this game and others you shared information on.

Too often it becomes bickering on here but you showed you can stay above it and provide helpful information that can make people money. While a few others like Mickey have done the same, it’s rare.

Just wanted to point that out. Have a Great Day and Thanksgiving!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Boz

Proz, just a quick thanks for all your work on this game and others you shared information on.

Too often it becomes bickering on here but you showed you can stay above it and provide helpful information that can make people money. While a few others like Mickey have done the same, it’s rare.

Just wanted to point that out. Have a Great Day and Thanksgiving!

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Happy Thanksgiving Boz.

Bumping this because I can't find any AP Slot threads on the front page...

Has anyone felt out the new wheel of fortunes with the changing multipliers on top of the reels? I've started testing them out when I can get an average of 4x or more on the next y multipliers (e.g. if the next three are 2x 3x 10x, that's an average of 5x, so I play the next three spins), but I don't have much of a sample yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guy Incognito

but I don't have much of a sample yet.

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More sample data:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg2ldB5wj88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V0lKnpoFEA

I dont know if this thread is dead or not, but was enjoyable to read everyone experience. I finally got to try this game. Wow is it volatile. Lost all my money. In my first session, I got regular free spins twice and 4 coins (won nothing) and the 2x free spins once. The 2x only made like $20. In my second session, at min bet I spun over 500 times and no bonus. I am not sure this is actually an AP game especially when the free spins at min bet don't guarantee one of the 3 multiplier spin. It could be a good candidate for someone who is trying increase their coin in/ou and have a good bankroll and want go through this. Unfortunately this game is not for me.

It's fun watching the locals sit and hawk this game all day waiting for a play.

From just looking at the video it looks like a big multiplier in the 4th column might be a key play.

The ones that I have seen operate basically the same way as Golden Egypt with $ symbols replacing coins.

Preliminarily, I'm taking the first three or any four of five. I might try to watch and collect some data on these, but for the time being, I tend to think this is positive and essentially amounts to a partial free roll on the wheel in this configuration. I could be wrong, of course. Those are my results---but it's a small sample size and I could just be, "Running well," on my wheel hit frequency. I did hit Free Games on the wheel and that paid a good bit, but even throwing it out of the data set, I'd still be ahead playing these configurations by about 25% of my wheel results. The wheel on this game is very frequent, but can return as low as 5x your bet amount.

Do what you want, but please don't consider this post as advice to play in any way. My sample size is too small to be confident of these play points, or that any configuration (other than reels already being wild, obviously) is even positive at all and I would need much more spin data to be sure. Perhaps I'll watch someone play one of these days, but I don't get to this particular casino often and it's not high on my list of priorities.

There are two different wof4d perpetual features out there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prozema

There are two different wof4d perpetual features out there.

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I know, but I've only played the one conceptually similar to Egypt. I haven't even seen the other one live yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

From just looking at the video it looks like a big multiplier in the 4th column might be a key play.

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the column number doesn't make a difference. You are looking for big multipliers. For one spin if i see a 7x or more I am playing it. For multiple spins I would probably need two multipliers above 12 and I would play until I hit one or I would need the total of all the multipliers to be above 25. Just my early take on the game, I could be wrong.