The truth about this degenerate industry

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

It cracks me up that people have a hard time with 2 things about me. 1) that I don't meet and socialize with other APs. As a solo player there just is no need to. And 2) that I have done what I have done in this town for 16 years now with only moderate heat, backoffs and 86ings (1 tresspass).

Just maybe the two are related. :)

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16 years making 80-100k locally in vegas using the sweatiest form of advantage play that casinos despise with only moderate heat and only 1 trespass? lmao. Thats really the thing that gets me. Yes, how you talk about blackjack and the numbers you say you make per year all seem reasonable, but the thing I don't get is how you can consistently get money down locally for 16 years with very little heat. Sure I haven't been the best at not bringing attention to myself in the first 6 years I was here when I was playing, but I did play short sessions and played a lot of places, which is the main thing that matters, but regardless, eventually you just get pegged. All of the other stuff like chip inventory, not being memorable, playing unrated, not going to the cage immediately after playing, while important, is really more of a supplemental thing to lasting a long time counting. The main thing is keeping your exposure low, and having a huge rotation, which you do. The problem I have with your statement is it just seems ridiculous. Sure, I also played a lot of the same places more than I should have, but there's only so many games that are really worth it and by worth it, I mean the overall package, getting time in long term and game quality. Playing low-roller places, your longevity even if you reduce your stakes is beyond limited.

To make 80-100k year in and year out regardless if you mean EV or actual win, likely means you're betting moderate stakes/chunky green and moderate stakes WILL get you tape-reviewed many times per year at that volume. When you just cant lose a hand and blast them in one shoe, short sessions are irrelevant. If it doesn't result in a tape-review, you still become memorable, which eventually, they won't forget. To make that type of money counting, it means A LOT of action per year in bets and it means you'll run into a handful of monster shoes a year. Session length wont matter. If it's a small place, you just made them remember you for a LONG time because no one is cleaning out their racks and they will not be so friendly on your return. For a strip place, there is more leeway short term, but eventually you'll just get on their wall in their surveillance room, flyered to their chain, and after the constant beatings, you will get tape-reviewed or skill checked. They are REALLY good at remembering you next time, mostly because of facial recog, which I know for sure they're using regardless of what people say. If they dont get you with that, itll be some guy upstairs that will get you when you come back within 30 minutes to an hour once your picture gets flagged in their surveillance room. Once all of that happens, it becomes almost impossible to get more than 30 minutes at each place on the strip whenever you return. You'll have to brute force your hours just to get thrown out every 30 minutes. Becomes grueling and almost not worth it with all of the walking and backoffs mid-shoe.

Short sessions can only do so much and with the games consistently deteriorating after COVID with less tables, you just run out of places to really play. To only have 1 trespass in 16 years? What the actual fuck. Unless you got like 20 silicone masks or i dont know what you're doing, those stats just seem absurd. If you told me you make 80-100k and you travel outside of vegas and play locally half the year, that sounds much more doable over a 16 year span. I know you have mentioned you travel back east I think once a year? What other trips do you make? Maybe you're just not telling the full story of exactly where all of your time comes from. If it's 95% of your hours come in Vegas, I won't believe it, at least not at the 80-100k a year level. If you tell me that 30-50% of your hours come from Vegas, that sounds a lot more reasonable.

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Originally Posted by ZenKinG

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

It cracks me up that people have a hard time with 2 things about me. 1) that I don't meet and socialize with other APs. As a solo player there just is no need to. And 2) that I have done what I have done in this town for 16 years now with only moderate heat, backoffs and 86ings (1 tresspass).

Just maybe the two are related. :)

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16 years making 80-100k locally in vegas using the sweatiest form of advantage play that casinos despise with only moderate heat and only 1 trespass? lmao. Thats really the thing that gets me. Yes, how you talk about blackjack and the numbers you say you make per year all seem reasonable, but the thing I don't get is how you can consistently get money down locally for 16 years with very little heat. Sure I haven't been the best at not bringing attention to myself in the first 6 years I was here when I was playing, but I did play short sessions and played a lot of places, which is the main thing that matters, but regardless, eventually you just get pegged. All of the other stuff like chip inventory, not being memorable, playing unrated, not going to the cage immediately after playing, while important, is really more of a supplemental thing to lasting a long time counting. The main thing is keeping your exposure low, and having a huge rotation, which you do. The problem I have with your statement is it just seems ridiculous. Sure, I also played a lot of the same places more than I should have, but there's only so many games that are really worth it and by worth it, I mean the overall package, getting time in long term and game quality. Playing low-roller places, your longevity even if you reduce your stakes is beyond limited.

To make 80-100k year in and year out regardless if you mean EV or actual win, likely means you're betting moderate stakes/chunky green and moderate stakes WILL get you tape-reviewed many times per year at that volume. When you just cant lose a hand and blast them in one shoe, short sessions are irrelevant. If it doesn't result in a tape-review, you still become memorable, which eventually, they won't forget. To make that type of money counting, it means A LOT of action per year in bets and it means you'll run into a handful of monster shoes a year. Session length wont matter. If it's a small place, you just made them remember you for a LONG time because no one is cleaning out their racks and they will not be so friendly on your return. For a strip place, there is more leeway short term, but eventually you'll just get on their wall in their surveillance room, flyered to their chain, and after the constant beatings, you will get tape-reviewed or skill checked. They are REALLY good at remembering you next time, mostly because of facial recog, which I know for sure they're using regardless of what people say. If they dont get you with that, itll be some guy upstairs that will get you when you come back within 30 minutes to an hour once your picture gets flagged in their surveillance room. Once all of that happens, it becomes almost impossible to get more than 30 minutes at each place on the strip whenever you return. You'll have to brute force your hours just to get thrown out every 30 minutes. Becomes grueling and almost not worth it with all of the walking and backoffs mid-shoe.

Short sessions can only do so much and with the games consistently deteriorating after COVID with less tables, you just run out of places to really play. To only have 1 trespass in 16 years? What the actual fuck. Unless you got like 20 silicone masks or i dont know what you're doing, those stats just seem absurd. If you told me you make 80-100k and you travel outside of vegas and play locally half the year, that sounds much more doable over a 16 year span. I know you have mentioned you travel back east I think once a year? What other trips do you make? Maybe you're just not telling the full story of exactly where all of your time comes from. If it's 95% of your hours come in Vegas, I won't believe it, at least not at the 80-100k a year level. If you tell me that 30-50% of your hours come from Vegas, that sounds a lot more reasonable.

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I think 99% of his hours are in Vegas. His 1st back off (I mean 86ing)was not too long ago. I've been saying this for years; it's impossible to avoid trespasses, no matter how well you know the system, bet tolerances, dealers, pit bosses, etc. You can't know when a pit boss has called in sick, changed shifts, is having a bad day(just looking to take it out on some card counter), or left for a diffrent location, policy changes, new surveillance member, new management, or new tracking system.

You can't control or avoid unpredictable events. There should have been at least two trespasses just by pure dumb luck, such as mistaken identity or associated with another hard counter who was all heated up and just happened to sit down at your table before you had a chance to get up and leave. Some asshole customer who knows about card counting ratting you out.

Yes only 1 trespass, where I was read the trespass act., but I probably have 80+ backoffs. That is "no more blackjack" or "any other game" or "your game is too good for us". Those are just temporary. Really only for that day, but I wouldn't go back too soon. I take a break from a casino of at least 2-3 months after each backoff, and when I return I try to avoid any pit folks and dealers that were involved.

Covid was a turning point for me as well. But not because of fewer tables, or a few local places dropping table games. I ran into a lot of heat resulting from several entries in databases, one from playing Reno one weekend. So I decided to play differently. Instead of grinding away at the local places max betting about $400 like I did for 12 years at that point, I played less, only on weekends but much higher stakes at crowded (strip places). Still short sessions, which means showing max bet 1 time. The key is to not be the biggest player at the table. I seek out tables with some of these younger guys that seem to have money to burn.

So I have been playing less, but higher stakes, and actually have drawn less heat and attention (backoffs) over the past 3-4 years.

After playing as long as I have, you know when you are drawing attention and heat long before any backoff occurs. If I get backed off, I probably missed some warning sign(s).

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You basically have listed all the things that have gone into my longevity. At the top of that list is short sessions. And that means exiting at the shuffle after showing your large bet. The big tell isn't raising your bets, it is retreating back at the shuffle. You exit rather than retreat back and you have eliminated that biggest of tells.

Now to play short sessions, you need a large rotation so you don't play the same places too often. And you are right there aren't 30 or 40 really good games in Vegas. there are 8-10. But I round out that rotation with another 2 dozen very mediocre games. Games other players won't bother with. the Ev is a little less, but it all adds up.

All the other things and you mentioned some are secondary. Chip inventory. Spreading both ways meaning starting with a 2 or 3 unit wager and dropping in negative counts prior to exiting, then when you raise up to 12 units, it only looks like a 1-4 spread. They (pit and/or surveillance) has to see the count go negative all the way to max bet in the same show to see your full spread and that doesn't happen very often.

It is a whole array of things, some little some bigger (all revolves around short sessions).

You know what else short sessions does? It doesn't rock the boat. Many backoffs occur because your play is to the point that somebody will have to answer for if they don't back you off. My goal every time I sit down, is to not get to that point.

And yes, YOU did things that drew attention and made yourself memorable. We all do at times, but you have to try hard not to do that. You only get one crack at first impressions. If you do something that makes yourself memorable, it is hard to get past that. No second chances at a first impression.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I think 99% of his hours are in Vegas. His 1st back off was not too long ago.

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Both these statements are incorrect. I make 3-4 trips a year to other areas. twice a year back east, and 1-2 times somewhere else, gulf coast, reno, pacific northwest. Reno really was the mistake. People told me not to play there and I knew better, but made a trip up there every year for 5-6 years for a long weekend. My Reno backoff was very bad. clear picture and entry in databases. Took me a long time (time off) to recover from that.

And both you and Zenking seem to be conflating backoffs with trespass. I know you know the difference. I have 1 trespass, but probably 80+ backoffs. My first few years I was getting backed off 7, 8, 9 times a year. I made some adjustments and it dropped to 5 or 6 and eventually to 2 or 3.

And as for trespasses, I count the one with the back room incident as my only trespass. But there kind of was a second, or I guess a first before the backroom incident, but it was many years ago at a very small casino that I was only playing for a promotion anyway. Too low stakes for my regular play. let's just say my "fortunes weren't too good at that "club". :)

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I think 99% of his hours are in Vegas. His 1st back off was not too long ago.

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Both these statements are incorrect. I make 3-4 trips a year to other areas. twice a year back east, and 1-2 times somewhere else, gulf coast, reno, pacific northwest. Reno really was the mistake. People told me not to play there and I knew better, but made a trip up there every year for 5-6 years for a long weekend. My Reno backoff was very bad. clear picture and entry in databases. Took me a long time (time off) to recover from that.

And both you and Zenking seem to be conflating backoffs with trespass. I know you know the difference. I have 1 trespass, but probably 80+ backoffs. My first few years I was getting backed off 7, 8, 9 times a year. I made some adjustments and it dropped to 5 or 6 and eventually to 2 or 3.

And as for trespasses, I count the one with the back room incident as my only trespass. But there kind of was a second, or I guess a first before the backroom incident, but it was many years ago at a very small casino that I was only playing for a promotion anyway. Too low stakes for my regular play. let's just say my "fortunes weren't too good at that "club". :)

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I meant to say trespassing, if you continue to read, I said trespassing, as you can see it has been corrected.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

You can't know when a pit boss has called in sick, changed shifts, is having a bad day(just looking to take it out on some card counter), or left for a diffrent location, policy changes, new surveillance member, new management, or new tracking system.

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Actually, you CAN know some of these things. You begin to be able to read people and situations. I will give you a couple examples:

my first few years I liked to play the M resort. Game was good. Loved the buffet. Pit guy was a philly or Jersey guy and we became friendly talking sports. He and the casino seemed comfortable with my play. I probably abused that by playing too often. Once a week, but pretty much the same time of day, a weekday early afternoon, so I could lunch at the buffet. So one day I sit down and this super friendly pit dude, wasn't so super friendly. Before he said a word I could see on his face something was up. Next thing I knew there was this suspicious dude, lurking over me, getting real chatting, pretending to be a patron, but I knew he wasn't. He followed me to a different table and eventually to the little sports bar they had, always chatting like we were friends. Nothing occurred that day, but my next vist I was backed off almost immediately. And while it was only a backoff, it was going to be hard to play at that casino again, for a good long time, then maybe a different shift.

Another time at Red Rock, I had a dealer I chatted with regularly. sat down to play. Immediately noticed a different "vibe" to the place, mainly the pit folks. AS casually as I could I asked the dealer what was up and he told me they had been hit hard by a team of players over the weekend. I decided not to play there that day. But I avoided any situation that may have come down because I could read something was up.

There are also times I see someone in the pit I am not familiar with. I can size them up immediately. especially the younger guys. You just get a vibe they are going to be real gung ho about heat and backing people off before I ever engage with them.

Everything mentioned here was of course back when I was playing the local circuit before covid.

But some of you people, don't give me much credit. Its like you think I am some Rube, that just got lucky all these years. I devised a detailed plan, of how I was going to play, everything geared to longevity. And when I made a mistake, I learned from it.

And you know, that is why I get so annoyed when some guy posts stories of sitting, playing for hours, spreading huge spreads, winning huge amounts of money and claiming the pit folks love him. :D

You CAN achieve some longevity in Las Vegas or playing mostly Las Vegas, but you have to work at it. It is downright insulting when he tells those stories.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

You mention that some of the people here are trolls, some are APs & some are both.

Do you think there is anyone here that is neither an AP or a troll?

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I don't know. MrV is not an AP. He is a recreational gambler. I don't consider him a troll, BUT he does some trolling.

Tasha, although she may occasionally do something small that is AP, I don't consider her an AP. Is she a troll? I don't know that either. Sometimes I think EVERYTHING about Tasha is an act (troll), other times I think she is genuine, just gullible.

Who else do you have in mind?

Dan Druff says there are people lurking, (associated with casinos). They would not be trolls or haters and not APs. But then again they don't participate either.

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You are exactly right.

Mr. V is not an AP & would not be considered a troll except for his trolling of Tasha with the mamie stuff.

Tasha is not an AP but maybe a troll, I go back & forth too, but after hearing her on Druff’s show I think it’s slightly more likely she is a troll than not.

Ok so you take about 5-6 trips? That's decent. What would you say your % of annual hours comes from outside of vegas? Heres the thing. Everything you say always sounds good in theory, but like most things that sound good on paper, it doesnt mean it always translates to the real world. Like I said, I didnt do myself any favors, but I imagine even if I did I wouldnt have been able to get 80-100k year in and year out for 16 years.

Theres little nuances that still confuse me that dont add up. You say you have a huge rotation of games even though its dwindled down a little. You say when you get backed off you stay out of there 2-3 months and thats basically how you avoid trespasses. Sounds good on paper, but those two things when added together dont make sense. How can you have a big rotation and every time you get backed off you dont go there for 2-3 months? Do you mean 2-3 months for that specific shift or the whole place? If it's the whole place, your rotation will dwindle down to nothing. You say you also only get backed off like twice a year? In vegas?? Hearing that is even worse than the 1 trespass comment you made. I guess if you only get backed off twice a year, you can still maintain a good rotation, but how the hell are you only getting backed off twice a year. Thats insane. Youre going to have a limited rotation generating 80-100k year in and year out, it's simply too much exposure on the felt regardless of short sessions. Limited rotation and say goodbye to 80-100k a year playing short sessions running around with your head cut off.

There's only so many worthwhile games in vegas where you can get time and/or game quality. You don't exactly need both, but sacrificing one can cause some problems. Add in your disguised betting spread raising at TC 0, which is another 2-5k hit on n0 depending how often you bet at 0 and you can only sacrifice so much before you're playing dumpy low-roller places with good games where you cant get time in or a 30k n0 tolerant place and either is going to destroy the 80-100k forecast. If you have a 30k+ n0, you're going to have a lot of tough years in vegas with all the short session grinding. If you want 3 hours of EV a day in vegas, you're looking at roughly double, if not more, walking and driving around, so 6-7 hours on average.

I dont know. I want to think your story is legit, but some things dont add up in that aspect. Id probably say youre in vegas, but your story is exaggerated.

Zenking, can I ask you what your bet spread is/was? Suppose you were playing a 6 deck game. What was your minimum wager and max wager?

I ask because most card counters use too big a spread. They read those books, like Wong's or Snyders that said you need a 1-12 spread for 6 deck and 1-16 spread at 8 deck at minimum. 2 x number of decks Well those books were written for the old play all approach. That is you sit down at a table and play through all counts, including all negative counts. I have never played that way and I will bet you don't either. Players today (those that are left) do some variation of escaping at least some of the negative counts, whether by wonging out at a certain negative count or even sitting out some counts. Even the phony phone call can reduce the number of negative counts (as long as you don't do it too often). All you need to do is escape SOME of the negative counts...the worst of them and you can use a much smaller spread.

If a player sits down using a 1-12 spread, and not doing some kind of camo wagering like spreading both ways, he might as well have "card counter" Tattooed on his forehead. And if he is going to drop back to that '1" bet after showing the "12" bet, even more so. You can make good money spreading half that and almost eliminate heat, as long as you don't revert back too many times (once or twice at most). Few places get too concerned with a 1-6 (or even less) spread, unless you sit there for 3 hours and win a lot of money.

Smaller spread and short sessions fixes most of the things that prevent longevity.

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Originally Posted by ZenKinG

Ok so you take about 5-6 trips. What would you say your % of annual hours comes from outside of vegas?

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I don't know. First I don't track my play by hours. Never have. When I adopted the very short session approach, I have 3 exit triggers. 1) is exiting at the shuffle after showing max bet. 2) is exiting at a predetermined negative count of -2 or -3 depending on where in the shoe it occurs. I NEVER play a hand at -4 TC or more (and really rarely -3), and 3) if neither of the first 2 occur, about 45 minutes.

The first two exit triggers are the 2 that mean most sessions will be very short. So I never play an hour, it is always part of an hour, sometimes literally just a few minutes, so I never tracked by hour. What I track by is rounds played. I estimate, but I think pretty accurately. And rounds played is what really matters anyway. When you run a sim, you get a number per round, or number per 100/rounds.

Anyway, when I go back east I usually go for about 10 days. Now I don't play blackjack every day. I have friends I see and go out with. Going to the Eagles opening game in 3 weeks. I probably play blackjack 5 or 6 days, circulating among 6-7 Pa casinos. And I make 2 such trips a year most years.

If I go to Gulf coast it is usually a week. Couple different locations down there. When I played Reno it was always only a long weekend. 3 days, maybe 4, which was 3-4 days too much. :D If you want me to guess, I would say a months worth of my play is not in Las Vegas.

After a backoff, or similar heat related incident, I stay away from the entire casino for 2 months for sure. and when I go back it will be a different time and shift than the incident occurred. And I will look around making sure the people involved aren't there. So say I am backed off on a Tuesday afternoon. I stay away 2 months and when I go back it will be night shift at least the first couple times. That way I am sure there isn't anything like a flyer posted anywhere. Eventually I will get back to that day shift.

I also don't really like it when people say I make or made 80-100k a year. YOU know that is not how blackjack works. Some years are good, some bad. I averaged 80k from blackjack for 12+ years when I was playing the locals circuit. But I had years that I won well over 100k, and years that I won 27k, 2020 (covid year my blackjack win was I think about 14k. I was in the red most of that year until October.

There is huge variance in card counting...you know that. And I actually do some things that invite bigger variance, using multiple spreads at the same game, ect, in the name of cover. I guess I am to blame for not just you, but a number of people saying I made 80k a year. It really was averaged 80K a year and the swings or deviations were pretty big some years.

Anyway, enough about me. I have gone over most of this many times before. And I don't even play that way anymore, although I am starting to play a little bit of the locals circuit again, just to diversify.

Oh, the other reason for staying away 2 months (2 months is a good number) is because any incident and it doesn't have to be a backoff, but any incident that resulted in a database entry, 2 months gives it time to get buried. If someone in the pit or surveillance is checking the databases, they scroll through the first page. They don't go searching further back than that. You just need enough time for some other suckers :D to have been databased and drop your entry off the first page.

Obviously I know the 80-100k is the average and my understanding is you always referenced that in EV and that's how I used it. It doesnt matter EV or actual(actual being even more unrealistic), my argument was and is the same. It seems unrealistic to do that all in vegas for 16 years.

My whole career has mostly always been either a purely focused backcounting only approach with a 1-4 or 1-5 spread or a very aggressive white rabbit wong out at -1 approach spreading 1xmin to 2x150, 2x200, 2x250, or 2x300. So to answer your question, i did use a big spread and played very little negatives. The good thing is they didnt see a lot of my waiting bets before finding a new table. Combine that with short sessions and a lot of times they didnt really see a big spread at least not in vegas.

There's also a very little understood metric called departure adjustment that few people understand what it means or the effect on the win rate and n0, and no, departure adjustment isn't just wonging out. This is really norm's fault because no one has any idea what these wonging out sims are telling them. It's in essense white rabbit as Don described in his book and he kind of went into it a little bit with 6 round lag times before finding a new shoe, etc, but he used static numbers such as rounds per hour and limited spreads. Thr confusion lies in how to actually calculate the effect off this. If someone sims a wonging out sim on CVCX and doesnt check the 'departure adjustment' box, youre basically telling the sim youre wonging out BUT sitting at the same table until the count recovers. What departure adjustment does is it tries to estimate the effect of not only wonging out but finding a different table and gives you a ticker to click how many rounds it wouldve taken you to find a new table. Obviously, the less rounds, not only does the win rate skyrocket, but the n0 gets slashed because youre not waiting for the count to recover at the SAME table. Because people dont understand this metric, but nonetheless adopt this playing style, they never know if theyre running worse or better than they think when they look back at their results.

So yes, ive always used a pretty blatant heads up spread, but the first 2 years or so in vegas i was mostly backcounting, which coincidentally looking back resulted in almost no backoffs or trespasses, but I was also playing a lot less, much smaller stakes, and I was also new to town so could be biased. I also mostly backcounted in PA when building my bankroll. If i go back to blackjack, im going to probably implement the higher bet at 0, which you do, as that has a very low impact on n0 and EV and results in a much smaller spread and therefore longevity. Probably will incorporate a 2 hand approach the whole time as well instead of the prototypical 1 to 2 hand counter tell

Kew is a happy camper today.....aside from his "If I say it it HAS to be believed---or else you're all trolls and haters!" He can spin his pretend stories and there's another forum-clown willing to go toe-to-toe with him.

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Originally Posted by ZenKinG

If i go back to blackjack, im going to probably implement the higher bet at 0, which you do, as that has a very low impact on n0 and EV and results in a much smaller spread and therefore longevity.

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Right, has very little impact at count of 0, especially if you only do it for a few rounds. :rolleyes:

Example. You are spreading $50-$400 at a 6 deck game. So your first couple bets when you sit down is $100. If the count begins to rise, you spread up to $400 as normal would. If the count drops to -1, you drop to $50. The total effect will be about the same as a 1-6 count, but the pit guy that marks down your first bet @ $100 will only see a 1-4 spread. he would have to see (and notice/mark down) you drop your bet to $50 and then go all the way back to your max bet to see your full spread and while that can happen, it doesn't too often in the same shoe.

I remember you were doing a lot of back-counting. Your results should have been better than you were saying at the time. the only thing I can think of is, are you absolutely sure it wasn't obvious that you were back counting and jumping into plus counts? That is basically why I adopted the play off the top but exit aggressively on negative counts. I thought back counting looked too obvious. The play off the top and aggressively exit negative counts was sort of my compromise position.

Are you going back to blackjack? That is fine with me. I never looked at it like other counters were competition. There is plenty to go around. The only thing I don't like is when these schools or bootcamps churn out players. If players have an interest, they have as much right as me or the next guy, but we don't need someone churning out players. :mad: The only positive to it is I don't think many players from these boot camps and schools actually succeed for long. I think they know just enough to eventually fail one way or another. ;)

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by ZenKinG

If i go back to blackjack, im going to probably implement the higher bet at 0, which you do, as that has a very low impact on n0 and EV and results in a much smaller spread and therefore longevity.

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Right, has very little impact at count of 0, especially if you only do it for a few rounds. :rolleyes:

Example. You are spreading $50-$400 at a 6 deck game. So your first couple bets when you sit down is $100. If the count begins to rise, you spread up to $400 as normal would. If the count drops to -1, you drop to $50. The total effect will be about the same as a 1-6 count, but the pit guy that marks down your first bet @ $100 will only see a 1-4 spread. he would have to see (and notice/mark down) you drop your bet to $50 and then go all the way back to your max bet to see your full spread and while that can happen, it doesn't too often in the same shoe.

I remember you were doing a lot of back-counting. Your results should have been better than you were saying at the time. the only thing I can think of is, are you absolutely sure it wasn't obvious that you were back counting and jumping into plus counts? That is basically why I adopted the play off the top but exit aggressively on negative counts. I thought back counting looked too obvious. The play off the top and aggressively exit negative counts was sort of my compromise position.

Are you going back to blackjack? That is fine with me. I never looked at it like other counters were competition. There is plenty to go around. The only thing I don't like is when these schools or bootcamps churn out players. If players have an interest, they have as much right as me or the next guy, but we don't need someone churning out players. :mad: The only positive to it is I don't think many players from these boot camps and schools actually succeed for long. I think they know just enough to eventually fail one way or another. ;)

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Slots are drying up hard. Im highly considering going back. Well see. Im sure backcounting looked a lot more obvious than i gave it credit for at the time. Being near a table now and thinking about how I used to just stand there looking at the table makes me second guess how obvious i must have looked. Then again there was some things I did that made it seem less obvious. Body language and posture were a big thing.

But yeah, white rabbit is definitely the best approach in modern blackjack, but everything is situational and based on number of tables and crowded conditions. Last thing, BJA and these bootcamp attendees are basically all fluff. Colin obviously knows the game and is well spoken, but these get rich quick stories on these podcasts and all that bullshit is exactly that, bullshit. The attendees are all degenerates paying more for a bootcamp than their entire bankroll or most of their bankroll and looking for a get rich quick scheme. The ones that actually make it are the ones that dig through the material themselves. Like anything in life, the ones who make it, had enough 'self-interest' in the topic to push themselves because when things get tough, it comes down to how bad you want it. The guys attracted to bootcamp seminars wont want it bad enough when it becomes a grind.

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Originally Posted by Seedvalue

Professional Gamblers / Casino APs who actually make their living from beating casinos don’t spend all their time trying to convince everyone they are legit. It’s the exact opposite. They don’t want anyone to know because it threatens their ability to earn.

The fact you have spent thousands of hours and years of your life trying to convince everyone with a computer you play blackjack for a living proves you don’t do shit.

100 percent you sell ass and mouth for cash. You play some on the side but your sugar daddies pay the bills. Fact

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Originally Posted by MDawg

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Originally Posted by MDawg

The truth is … UNKewlJ hasn’t spent 20 years playing blackjack. He’s spent 20 years trying to convince people that he’s been playing blackjack.

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And now going on a year trying desperately to establish that he's ever placed a sports bet in his tunnel dwelling life.

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Originally Posted by REDietz

If you substitute "male prostitute" for "AP" at each point in that post, the post makes a lot more sense.

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Originally Posted by UNKewlJ

If you are traumatized by the fucktards on these forums and discord (I never cared for discord) then why is it so hard to understand why a male prostitute like me wouldn't want to meet anyone from these platforms? :confused:

I don't know if you are aware, but I have had Mdawg who is nothing but a troll, dox information about me and I believe send that information to a casino.

I have had another member of this forum, Moses who was supposed to be an AP (on our side), stalk me off forum. You may remember him from Norm's forum as he started there about the time you and I were there. Moses passed away several years ago.

And I had a third member of these forums, posting as 'sidthesquid' asking members at WoV for pictures and information about me so he could find me or pass that info on to casinos. 'Sidthesquid' may have also been moses as that shit seemed to stop upon his passing.

My point is there are people on these forums and I would guess discord as well, that want to harm you as a male prostitute. Some are supposedly fellow male prostitutes. Some are not. So as a solo type male prostitute, why on earth would I have any desire to meet anyone from one of these platforms? The couple people I have met and have a relationship with are male prostitutes I knew or strongly knew of off forum.

I know my attitude about this...not wanting to meet people, ruffles some feathers. Axelwolf is one that has always seemed offended by this. It isn't anything personal. As a solo male prostitute, I just don't see the point (or benefit).

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Originally Posted by MDawg

The forty-one most major UNKewl lies I can think of concern
(1) his lie about Moses showing up at a condo he claimed he lived at, (2) a condo it turned out that he has no ownership in and does not even live in, where he can’t even get his story straight about what is and what is not allowed by the condo CCRs, and lies about “renting it out” AirBnB style, (3) his faking his own death, (5) the nonsense about MGM execs showing up at his apartment on Halloween to give him player records, (6) the backrooming lawsuit, (8) the lie about being doxxed, or ever having his name placed in any casino database.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Remember when FraudJ told all of us about his database listing containing his online handle kewlJ

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I remember. What about it?

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Let's just say Red Hand has zippo.....RIP:cool:

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Just stopped in to say this was the best thread on here in a while. KJ, ZK and Axel talking legitimate AP in spite of their differences and disagreements.

Of course a poser in MDawg had to come in and ruin it, granted after his automated AI response look a few hours.

Maybe I should post all my pics of the Harrahs “VIP’s” in the stands on the 17th in Tahoe, which I was a part of for 3 days last month. No clue if he was there but I know I was and have dozens of pictures you can pick yourself out of.

Quick, since you know who I am, call your dad’s host and get her to threaten me. Since you are a far bigger loser than I could ever dream of I’m sure you’ll cause problems for me.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

You can't know when a pit boss has called in sick, changed shifts, is having a bad day(just looking to take it out on some card counter), or left for a diffrent location, policy changes, new surveillance member, new management, or new tracking system.

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Actually, you CAN know some of these things. You begin to be able to read people and situations. I will give you a couple examples:

my first few years I liked to play the M resort. Game was good. Loved the buffet. Pit guy was a philly or Jersey guy and we became friendly talking sports. He and the casino seemed comfortable with my play. I probably abused that by playing too often. Once a week, but pretty much the same time of day, a weekday early afternoon, so I could lunch at the buffet. So one day I sit down and this super friendly pit dude, wasn't so super friendly. Before he said a word I could see on his face something was up. Next thing I knew there was this suspicious dude, lurking over me, getting real chatting, pretending to be a patron, but I knew he wasn't. He followed me to a different table and eventually to the little sports bar they had, always chatting like we were friends. Nothing occurred that day, but my next vist I was backed off almost immediately. And while it was only a backoff, it was going to be hard to play at that casino again, for a good long time, then maybe a different shift.

Another time at Red Rock, I had a dealer I chatted with regularly. sat down to play. Immediately noticed a different "vibe" to the place, mainly the pit folks. AS casually as I could I asked the dealer what was up and he told me they had been hit hard by a team of players over the weekend. I decided not to play there that day. But I avoided any situation that may have come down because I could read something was up.

There are also times I see someone in the pit I am not familiar with. I can size them up immediately. especially the younger guys. You just get a vibe they are going to be real gung ho about heat and backing people off before I ever engage with them.

Everything mentioned here was of course back when I was playing the local circuit before covid.

But some of you people, don't give me much credit. Its like you think I am some Rube, that just got lucky all these years. I devised a detailed plan, of how I was going to play, everything geared to longevity. And when I made a mistake, I learned from it.

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Yes, and as I've mentioned in the past you can just tell when something's wrong, especially in small places you frequent. You normally get a smile or a warm greeting when you first walk in. Then suddenly, one there's no friendly greeting and you're basically ignored. I ran into this many times, and I know the gig is pretty much up.

You're above post regarding knowing when something is up is spot on. This is not something you pick up from the forums or in books and adds another reason why I believe you are in fact an experienced card counter.

However, something still doesn't jive with the limited number of trespasses you have had. As I said before, if you spend enough time Advantage Playing in the casinos, uncontrollable and unavoidable strange random bad crap is bound to happen. I've mentioned some of these things that have happened to me before; perhaps in another post, I will add to those or reiterate.

I'll start off with a quick, less detailed one. I'm minding my own business while scouting machines to play on a good promotion.
I suddenly get surrounded by security and management. They have detained me, and they want my ID. Of course, I said, "NO ,I haven't done anything wrong, and I'm leaving... You don't have any right to detain me or demand my ID."

Well, that didn't work.

They said, "We, in fact, can.... You fit the description of someone who's been accused of stealing a bucket of coins."

They made me wait until the person could identify me. Luckily, the person said I wasn't the one who stole their coins. Had they misidentified me(misidentification happens often), it could have been a major problem.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

However, something still doesn't jive with the limited number of trespasses you have had.

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Actually, there was one other "incident" I hadn't forgotten about it, I just don't consider it a trespass. The casino involved might though. ;) I did write about it when it occurred. My partner was still alive, so it was prior to 2018. Here are the details (from my perspective).

I was backed off playing blackjack. Clearly backed off, NOT trespassed. Told "no more blackjack" or something to that effect. So I gathered up my chips, and headed for the door. I didn't cash out because I avoid doing so any time there was some kind of heat involved because the cage is a place where the casino can get a clear photo of you if they are looking to do so. I try not to give them that opportunity.

So as I am walking across the casino floor, towards the front door. There was a security guard sort of following me. Didn't say anything, just felt like he was keeping an eye on me. Once outside, I was standing waiting for my partner to pick me up. Not sure where he was (somewhere on property) but I had texted him and was waiting. So one of the casino bicycle security dudes came riding up and told me I had to leave the property. So I walked 100 feet (maybe a couple hundred feet) off their property to a time share type resort that was across the street where my partner picked me up.

I don't consider this a trespass. I was never read the trespass act or told I couldn't return to the property, which I did probably 100 times. I chalked it up to one of those over-zealous security dudes.

You will notice I haven't mentioned the casino. But you probably know where I am talking about from the description. And yes, it is the one property that I was officially trespassed from 5-6 years later. So if I have had a second (or 3rd if you count Club Fortune which also wasn't an official trespass) it was at the same property. They have a reputation of being aggressive with countermeasures. :rolleyes:

Now as to why I have only had 1 official trespass and many, many more backoffs, I don't have an answer for that. From not only my experiences but talking to others, I think I just arrived in Vegas at a time (late 2009) and played during a period, when the really common counter-measures were "polite back offs". There was a lot of "no more blackjack" or "any other game but blackjack".

.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

kewlJ has also been caught in a lot of lies over time, both on this forum and elsewhere. Therefore, it is unclear if he really makes much (or anything) playing blackjack these days.

kewlJ is basically the Boy Who Cried Wolf of these AP forums. He has lied so many times that it's impossible to believe any stories he tells, which means that even when he's telling the truth, we think he's lying. That's entirely his fault.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

KJ, I might believe you, however, you just have way too many interesting things/stories Etc that for some reason or another you can never provide any proof. There's always some, for lack of a better word, Bullshit reason why you can't/won't. It seems as if it would be in your best interest to not mention anything in the first place if you can't provide one iota of proof for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

At this point anyone who thinks FraudJ represents anything truthfully or factually correct is a fool.....RIP

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Originally Posted by The Boz

Just stopped in to say this was the best thread on here in a while. KJ, ZK and Axel talking legitimate AP in spite of their differences and disagreements.

Of course a poser in MDawg had to come in and ruin it, granted after his automated AI response look a few hours.

Maybe I should post all my pics of the Harrahs “VIP’s” in the stands on the 17th in Tahoe, which I was a part of for 3 days last month. No clue if he was there but I know I was and have dozens of pictures you can pick yourself out of.

Quick, since you know who I am, call your dad’s host and get her to threaten me. Since you are a far bigger loser than I could ever dream of I’m sure you’ll cause problems for me.

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:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Now as to why I have only had 1 official trespass and many, many more backoffs, I don't have an answer for that. From not only my experiences but talking to others, I think I just arrived in Vegas at a time (late 2009) and played during a period, when the really common counter-measures were "polite back offs". There was a lot of "no more blackjack" or "any other game but blackjack".

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Additionally, I have told the story a number of times about pit Guy Maurice (went by Mo) at El Cortez. Slightly built older man who talked with a heavy Italian accent. Mo backed me off one day. Again no mention of not returning or being trespassed. So I returned the very next day, more out of spite than anything else. (kind of a ZenKing move :D) Well Maurice just about had a stroke jibber-jabbering at me in his broken English. I walked away. Walked right into the Men's room and Maurice was so flustered he followed, still barking at me.

Again, THIS was not a tresspass as far as I am concerned. I have returned to that property hundreds of times. So when I say 1 trespass, that is from my perspective, Different casinos might think otherwise. :D

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

FraudJ is easy to find. Stall 2 El Cortez 6-8pm on Wednesday nights probably.

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This retard doesn't gamble.

Nosy fuckers out making a nuisance of themselves videoing everyone in sight hoping to catch a glimpse of The Great MDawg?

https://i.imgur.com/yU4TIEdl.jpg

This retard doesn't gamble.

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Bump