Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

Again, not saying Singer has done this play as I wouldn't know either way, but I agree with almost everything in the previous post. My only disagreement is that I would not use a players club card for the cover play. Why would I sit there and play for however long it takes NOT using a players club card and then suddenly decide I want to do so...from the casino's standpoint?

The casino Nestor went to was The Meadows. He rolled up in that motherfucker like some kind of goddamn celebrity. Bodyguard, all of that.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

No one sees what you're doing kew. No one watches unless you make them.

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No one sees? :confused: No one is watching? :confused: You win 35 thousand dollars in 45 minutes and no one notices and takes a look? :confused:

Fantasyland sir. Perhaps you would like to amend your "I walk in with 5k and walk out 45 minutes late with $40k, time and time again" statement. ;)

Come to think of it, you need to amend a whole bunch of statements. This is all just hogwash.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

No one sees what you're doing kew. No one watches unless you make them.

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No one sees? :confused: No one is watching? :confused: You win 35 thousand dollars in 45 minutes and no one notices and takes a look? :confused:

Fantasyland sir. Perhaps you would like to amend your "I walk in with 5k and walk out 45 minutes late with $40k, time and time again" statement. ;)

Come to think of it, you need to amend a whole bunch of statements. This is all just hogwash.

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Here's a clue you dummy: playing DDBP on a 25c thru $5 machine, IF the payable is the same for quarters as it is for $5, four aces pays $200 for quarters and $4000 for $5. You get up and leave. You DO NOT win $40k or greater on any one hand at very many casinos--even the ones that have $1 thru $25 on their hi limit machines.

I made the $45k comment to mock you....just like mickey made the Singer Play thread to pull my chain!

Get it yet, dopey?:)

Mission, you spend enough time in casinos that you ought to know that there are amounts of wins that people HAVE to answer for. Different amount based on games and casinos and probably time of day/day of week. But there are amounts that trigger scrutiny. And a guy walking in a casino playing 45 minutes and walking out winning 35k is going to draw attention and every second of his visit and play examined.

I mean this is exactly the principal that I base what I do on. It is why I adopted a short session, which equals smaller wins, and play amounts that are better tolerated when I have the bankroll to play much larger. Big wins are going to draw attention and be looked at. Anyone who doesn't think so, really doesn't know much about the casino business.

Call this an overabundance of caution, but another thing about using the card that I am not in love with is, as you eventually do hit the same casino multiple times, you look lifetime profitable. I don't want to look lifetime anything. Without any record of losses whatsoever (because I'm not using a card) for all they know, I've lost money overall in my visits.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

No one sees what you're doing kew. No one watches unless you make them.

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No one sees? :confused: No one is watching? :confused: You win 35 thousand dollars in 45 minutes and no one notices and takes a look? :confused:

Fantasyland sir. Perhaps you would like to amend your "I walk in with 5k and walk out 45 minutes late with $40k, time and time again" statement. ;)

Come to think of it, you need to amend a whole bunch of statements. This is all just hogwash.

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Here's a clue you dummy: playing DDBP on a 25c thru $5 machine, IF the payable is the same for quarters as it is for $5, four aces pays $200 for quarters and $4000 for $5. You get up and leave. You DO NOT win $40k or greater on any one hand at very many casinos--even the ones that have $1 thru $25 on their hi limit machines.

I made the $45k comment to mock you....just like mickey made the Singer Play thread to pull my chain!

Get it yet, dopey?:)

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Rob your stories are forever changing. THAT is what credibility is about and you long ago used up any that you had. Your claims just increasingly don't make (common) sense.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

Again, not saying Singer has done this play as I wouldn't know either way, but I agree with almost everything in the previous post. My only disagreement is that I would not use a players club card for the cover play. Why would I sit there and play for however long it takes NOT using a players club card and then suddenly decide I want to do so...from the casino's standpoint?

The casino Nestor went to was The Meadows. He rolled up in that motherfucker like some kind of goddamn celebrity. Bodyguard, all of that.

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First, if you were to use a card while playing to hit a jackpot hand, you run the risk of getting caught doing SOMETHING fishy. They can look at your play and see you've ONLY played lower level VP, but yet here they are paying you for a highest denomination hit.

The card play after the fact shows hi limit play, it generates offers, and it's the first thing anyone who's glancing at your recorded play sees. HE HIT A $25 DDBP JACKPOT AND HE PLAYED SOME MORE AFTER HITTING IT.

It works. 100 %.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Mission, you spend enough time in casinos that you ought to know that there are amounts of wins that people HAVE to answer for. Different amount based on games and casinos and probably time of day/day of week. But there are amounts that trigger scrutiny. And a guy walking in a casino playing 45 minutes and walking out winning 35k is going to draw attention and every second of his visit and play examined.

I mean this is exactly the principal that I base what I do on. It is why I adopted a short session, which equals smaller wins, and play amounts that are better tolerated when I have the bankroll to play much larger. Big wins are going to draw attention and be looked at. Anyone who doesn't think so, really doesn't know much about the casino business.

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It's video poker, people hit jackpots. If you spread the action around, even in terms of a lifetime machine performance, what you're doing doesn't meaningfully change the overall actual payout percentage one way or another. Certainly not more than what could just be attributed to normal variance. I'm also going to suggest that, even if you're just taking down smaller jackpots, you would want to structure your playing such that you are there during times as busy as possible so that they don't really have a ton of time to look into what you're doing. Yeah, if you're the only guy in the house, I could see where that might be a problem. When the place is packed wall to wall on a weekend evening...they're just trying to get you paid and on to the next.

I'll tell you this, in general, the eye in the sky is more concerned about you counting cards than it is with the machines. Like Singer pointed out, Kane was taking down multiple jackpots in a short period of time, which is what I think got them even looking at the video to begin with. There's absolutely nothing unusual about a video poker jackpot or jackpot of any other kind.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

First, if you were to use a card while playing to hit a jackpot hand, you run the risk of getting caught doing SOMETHING fishy. They can look at your play and see you've ONLY played lower level VP, but yet here they are paying you for a highest denomination hit.

The card play after the fact shows hi limit play, it generates offers, and it's the first thing anyone who's glancing at your recorded play sees. HE HIT A $25 DDBP JACKPOT AND HE PLAYED SOME MORE AFTER HITTING IT.

It works. 100 %.

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I can play some more after it without using a card. All I want is for them to see me playing. I don't want a record that makes me look like I win a ton and not lose very much over any given period of time. I just want them to assume that I'm losing overall, like most other players would be doing.

I obviously wouldn't be using a card when I hit the hand, I wouldn't be using a card at all at any point. I don't want to generate offers because I wouldn't need them for anything. I don't want a host because I want as few people looking at me and/or talking to me as possible.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

I'll tell you this, in general, the eye in the sky is more concerned about you counting cards than it is with the machines.

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Who told you this? This is an absolute myth. You know what the absolute top thing surveillance is looking at? Employee theft!. Suspicious and/or higher limit machine wins would probably be second. Card counting is actually pretty low priority, unless a card counter or team is playing fairly high amounts and camping out.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Mission, you spend enough time in casinos that you ought to know that there are amounts of wins that people HAVE to answer for. Different amount based on games and casinos and probably time of day/day of week. But there are amounts that trigger scrutiny. And a guy walking in a casino playing 45 minutes and walking out winning 35k is going to draw attention and every second of his visit and play examined.

I mean this is exactly the principal that I base what I do on. It is why I adopted a short session, which equals smaller wins, and play amounts that are better tolerated when I have the bankroll to play much larger. Big wins are going to draw attention and be looked at. Anyone who doesn't think so, really doesn't know much about the casino business.

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It's video poker, people hit jackpots. If you spread the action around, even in terms of a lifetime machine performance, what you're doing doesn't meaningfully change the overall actual payout percentage one way or another. Certainly not more than what could just be attributed to normal variance. I'm also going to suggest that, even if you're just taking down smaller jackpots, you would want to structure your playing such that you are there during times as busy as possible so that they don't really have a ton of time to look into what you're doing. Yeah, if you're the only guy in the house, I could see where that might be a problem. When the place is packed wall to wall on a weekend evening...they're just trying to get you paid and on to the next.

I'll tell you this, in general, the eye in the sky is more concerned about you counting cards than it is with the machines. Like Singer pointed out, Kane was taking down multiple jackpots in a short period of time, which is what I think got them even looking at the video to begin with. There's absolutely nothing unusual about a video poker jackpot or jackpot of any other kind.

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A jackpot every month or longer. I played in every major casino from Wendover to Laughlin. The only hassles were from the occasional Slot Ambassadors, who asked if I had a card and why I wasn't using it. I was always polite, saying I'm just here to play and I'll probably use my card in a bit.

As for tipping on the many large jackpots I received up to multiple $100kers, I didn't. You come in once every month or two and play for a little while, they don't care.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Who told you this? This is an absolute myth. You know what the absolute top thing surveillance is looking at? Employee theft!. Suspicious and/or higher limit machine wins would probably be second. Card counting is actually pretty low priority, unless a card counter or team is playing fairly high amounts and camping out.

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Well, again, I'm just discussing what I would like to think I would have done had I known about this play. I wouldn't be in any high-limit rooms, that's the first thing. I wouldn't take down even so much as a five-figure jackpot anywhere, that's the second thing. I'd like $0.50 denom (two grand jackpot) if available, and if not, we'd go dollars and four grand.

So, I'm on the main floor hitting ONE $2,000 or $4,000 jackpot on a video poker machine that I have been playing for some reasonable amount of time unless I just happen to catch the hand early. If I catch the hand within five minutes, you know what? I don't want that one, we'll do it on the next one.

Given these assumptions, what is a suspicious win? A guy who has been playing for hours catching a Royal or an AWAK? Not even remotely.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

A jackpot every month or longer. I played in every major casino from Wendover to Laughlin. The only hassles were from the occasional Slot Ambassadors, who asked if I had a card and why I wasn't using it. I was always polite, saying I'm just here to play and I'll probably use my card in a bit.

As for tipping on the many large jackpots I received up to multiple $100kers, I didn't. You come in once every month or two and play for a little while, they don't care.

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You hit a 4k jackpot every month (for example), you give $500 of every jackpot back, or try to, and at the end of a year...you look up $42,000. No thanks. Also, even though it is extremely unlikely, only playing with a card after you have hit a jackpot and never any other time could theoretically become an observable pattern. Why is this guy doing that?

Again, I admit no card at all ever might be a little extra cautious, but that's how I would play it.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Who told you this? This is an absolute myth. You know what the absolute top thing surveillance is looking at? Employee theft!. Suspicious and/or higher limit machine wins would probably be second. Card counting is actually pretty low priority, unless a card counter or team is playing fairly high amounts and camping out.

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Well, again, I'm just discussing what I would like to think I would have done had I known about this play. I wouldn't be in any high-limit rooms, that's the first thing. I wouldn't take down even so much as a five-figure jackpot anywhere, that's the second thing. I'd like $0.50 denom (two grand jackpot) if available, and if not, we'd go dollars and four grand.

So, I'm on the main floor hitting ONE $2,000 or $4,000 jackpot on a video poker machine that I have been playing for some reasonable amount of time unless I just happen to catch the hand early. If I catch the hand within five minutes, you know what? I don't want that one, we'll do it on the next one.

Given these assumptions, what is a suspicious win? A guy who has been playing for hours catching a Royal or an AWAK? Not even remotely.

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I can appreciate that. You are being honest.

But here is the problem: Rob's new 'story' just don't make sense and just like everything else Rob claims are already dramatically changing.

In one second he says he plays sparingly only a couple times a month, winning amounts like 35k in 45 minutes....amounts that would be noticed and looked at and his entire play (45 minutes) examined.

In the next breath, he says he was kidding and that he plays frequently, registering many very small win. And the problem with this is it doesn't add up to 3 million dollars or 1/2 million a year. :confused:

I mean this isn't really about Rob's play (which I don't believe). This is now about Rob and his many claims that change and just can't be. Mission you are not on this site all that much, or at least don't post. I just can't figure out how and why people continue to believe this guy. I am going to repost a post I made in the other thread because it is makes everything so clear.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Speaking of which lets go over the "Singer Tales" just since I have been on this forum.

1.) he made just under a million dollars over 10 years, playing the singer, progressive betting, stop limit strategy. (mathematically impossible)

2.) Later the number increase to 1.5 million over 10 years.

3.) Recently he changed this to he made 376k over 4 years, but made and additional 3 million over 6 years with this new "caper".

4.) I don't have the numbers handy (and don't feel like looking them up), but he shared numbers for the RVs that he has bought and those numbers have increase at each telling of the story.

5.) recent 200k picture of a jackpot that turned out to be a phony.

6.) and now this grandest of all tales, 3 million dollars in wins over 6 years playing this scam that the only other known players were busted in a very short time, yet Rob played undetected for 6 years to the tune of 3 million.

Where does it end? At what point do you guys stop believing the boy who cried (axel)wolf? :confused:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Mission146

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Who told you this? This is an absolute myth. You know what the absolute top thing surveillance is looking at? Employee theft!. Suspicious and/or higher limit machine wins would probably be second. Card counting is actually pretty low priority, unless a card counter or team is playing fairly high amounts and camping out.

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Well, again, I'm just discussing what I would like to think I would have done had I known about this play. I wouldn't be in any high-limit rooms, that's the first thing. I wouldn't take down even so much as a five-figure jackpot anywhere, that's the second thing. I'd like $0.50 denom (two grand jackpot) if available, and if not, we'd go dollars and four grand.

So, I'm on the main floor hitting ONE $2,000 or $4,000 jackpot on a video poker machine that I have been playing for some reasonable amount of time unless I just happen to catch the hand early. If I catch the hand within five minutes, you know what? I don't want that one, we'll do it on the next one.

Given these assumptions, what is a suspicious win? A guy who has been playing for hours catching a Royal or an AWAK? Not even remotely.

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I can appreciate that. You are being honest.

But here is the problem: Rob's new 'story' just don't make sense and just like everything else Rob claims is already dramatically changing.

In one second he says he plays sparingly only a couple times a month today, winning amounts like 35k in 45 minutes....amounts that would be noticed and looked at and his entire play (45 minutes) examined.

In the next minute he says he was kidding and that he plays frequently, registering many very small win. And the problem with this is it doesn't add up to 3 million dollars or 1/2 million a year. :confused:

I mean this isn't really about Rob's play (which I don't believe). This is now about Rob and his many claims that change and just can't be. Mission you are not on this site all that much, or at least don't post. I just can't figure out how and why people continue to believe this guy. I am going to repost a post I made in the other thread because it is makes everything so clear.

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KewlJ,

I'm just trying to have a conversation with you guys based on both facts and opinions. The only facts that I am somewhat aware of (and do not have perfect knowledge) have to do with Nestor and Kane on the play. The only opinion I am interested in discussing is the theoreticals of the play as well as the different approaches that someone might take with such a play, including myself. As far as Singer having participated on the play independently of Nestor and Kane, there are no facts that I have been presented with either for or against, so it's not of any particular interest to me whether he did or not.

You guys can have your back-and-forth with each other, of course, I'm just not personally interested in the topic of whether or not Singer had any involvement in this play.

That all being said, I'm not concerned with who does or does not believe Singer's claims. Maybe that is a function of not posting here very frequently. I read or hear claims people make about things, and generally speaking (but not always) I come to my own decisions as to whether or not I believe it...but am not particularly inclined to discuss my opinions of people's claims either way unless they are categorically bullshit or mathematically impossible. I'm not even saying merely thinking they are bullshit, I'm talking factually literally-can-not-happen bullshit.

Maybe I'm missing something but has anyone actually said what this supposed play is/was?

Earlier in the thread, at least, in general terms. It was a multi-step process due to a glitch in certain Game King units that enabled a player to hit a paying hand while playing a lower denomination that could then be essentially transferred to a higher denomination and was then paid out at said higher denomination. For example, a nickel denomination royal ($0.25 bet, $200) could become a dollar denomination royal ($5 bet, $4,000) and other possibilities. For it to work, though, it had to be a handpay.

As far as the exact process of causing this, only the manufacturer, the guys to actually do it and anyone they may have told would know that. There was a list of steps as to how it was done once published, but many people claim that list is incorrect. I don't know whether that list is incorrect or not.

I am a little surprised this topic hasn't crossed forums to receive discussion at WoV. I realize Singer is a banned member, but as both Mickey and Axel stated if this is/was true this would be one of the monumental stories of interest and discussion through the gaming community. Perhaps because of the situation and who is making the claim, cross discussion was not permitted or something. :confused: I would be very interested to hear the comments from the WoV membership, including Mike. I'll bet there would be many, many more skeptics like me.

In general terms, this has been discussed at WoV and I've written an article relating back to Nestor and Kane maybe a couple years ago. I could have probably fired off more specifics without going back to look at it at one time, but it's been awhile since I wrote about it. I don't know anything about discussion not being permitted, as far as I can tell, nobody has really created or added to a thread over there about Singer's involvement.

Maybe there would be skeptics. That said, we know that there absolutely was a play of this nature and we know the generalities of the play. Because we know that people actually engaged in this play, it is conceivable that people other than those known discovered the play. Because Rob Singer is a person, it is possible he came to know about the play and exploited it.

Point is, we're talking about something that definitely occurred for Nestor and Kane. I think anyone who just randomly popped up (Singer or otherwise) claiming to have done this play would get some, "Scrutiny." I don't know why anyone to ever do this play would even want to discuss it other than for the purpose of bragging, but again, that's just my opinion. Either way, there would be questions for anyone to claim to have done this.