Eliot and Don Feud

Oh what the hell! I think I will take one more poke at you Eliot.

The Blackjack Zone. Lessons in winning blackjack and life.

Can I ask what makes a hobbiest as you now describe yourself think he is qualified for such a book? :confused:

The write up includes "To the average player, the information in this book may be worth $200,000 or more".

$200,000 or more?? Did you mean to say $6000? ;)

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Peace to you Eliot.

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Back at you!

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Oh what the hell! I think I will take one more poke at you Eliot.

The Blackjack Zone. Lessons in winning blackjack and life.

Can I ask what makes a hobbiest as you now describe yourself think he is qualified for such a book? :confused:

The write up includes "To the average player, the information in this book may be worth $200,000 or more".

$200,000 or more?? Did you mean to say $6000? ;)

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Glad you are reading BJZ (rather than just its cover)! When you're done with the book, let me know what you think. The book explains the $200k number. You will find that it is not a book about becoming a professional card counter.

If for some reason you don't already own a copy of BJZ, you can download it here for free in pdf format: https://ijmp.org/?p=2189

Thanks Eliot. In all honesty, I think I've only read a few counting books. Guess I was too cheap to buy them. :p

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by monet

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I had some fun today going over this thread, reading about Eliot's background, his history in the gaming industry, the work he has put out, and those that hold some animosity toward him. It looks like the animosity comes down to things Eliot did like seminars and books. They don't like that he put that kind of information out there.

Now, one of the things that KJ says is Eliot did what he did because he was a failed AP and did it to spite all successful AP's. First, was Eliot really a "failed AP?" Well, he learned AP but did that mean he intended to give up a pretty good career to become something like KJ? If you look at the respective careers of Eliot and KJ do you really think Eliot would want to trade his career in to become a KJ?

My uncle is a PHD. He was President of Chattahoochee Technical College for 22 years. So he retires to the Mississippi Coast and he and his wife like to visit casinos. He finds out I'm an AP and asks some questions. I was like "Uncle, just have fun with it and don't get to involved. As AP goes a man of your stature doesn't want to get that tarnish on his chrome finish."

There are to many examples of academics studying and publishing tactics on advantage play but not taking the vocation up themselves and moving on to something else.

This is my take on "spiteful." One of the favorite tactics of the spitefull is to call someone they don't like spitefull. It is obvious here that KJ is the one that is filled with spite.

Advantage play has worked out pretty good for guys like KJ and me. Look at our backgrounds. Neither one of us had anything on the ball before AP. But a guy like Eliot, dude is all degree'd up. A PHD for Christ sake. A guy like that has a hell of a lot more options than just AP. AP is actually a step down.

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Who hacked mickeycrimm's account???
That's a violation!!

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Man Servant Mickey is just looking for a new man to serve. Since his last one got cut to pieces.

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Maxpenn the Cocksucker loves to suck cock. Especially KJ's cock. They dont' call him Maxpenn the Cocksucker for nothing.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Maxpenn the Cocksucker loves to suck cock. Especially KJ's cock. They dont' call him Maxpenn the Cocksucker for nothing.

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Grow the fuck up Mickeycrimm! You fell for Rob's shit. You were wrong. Be a man and fucking admit it and stop acting like a 6 year old brat.

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Originally Posted by Eliot

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Advantage play has worked out pretty good for guys like KJ and me. Look at our backgrounds. Neither one of us had anything on the ball before AP. But a guy like Eliot, dude is all degree'd up. A PHD for Christ sake. A guy like that has a hell of a lot more options than just AP. AP is actually a step down.

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Mickey, many APs put forward false idea that people desperately want to be APs, that it is somehow a pinnacle career that should be aspired to. Thanks for your perspective.

I have a question. Did you ever play the Class-2 Bingo slots in Alabama? Around 2007-2012? I designed the math models for many of those. We knew about they could be crushed by smart players and I'm just wondering if you were one of those.

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No, I've never been in a casino in Alabama or Mississippi. And it looks like it was a well-kept secret as this is the first I've heard of any class II's that could be exploited. 2007 is when I found some things in Montana and have lived here ever since. Good plays come and go here. It slowed down a couple of years ago so I started traveling out of state again. A heart attack last November put me in retirement mode but I'm actually enjoying the life of leisure.

What I found in Montana was exploitable video keno games whether they were banking, progressive/ or banking/progressive games. They didn't exist in other areas of the country. It's been about 13 years and they've mostly gone by the wayside. Fun while it lasted though.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

What do you call a weasal that hides behind a fictitious username and anti-doxxing rules to defame/smear/impugn someone that uses their real name. I call him KJ THE WEASAL!!!

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Redietz was expounding on this very thing, hiding behind phony names and attacking those that use their real names. However, he has been strangely quiet of KJ doing this to Eliot.

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Originally Posted by Eliot

If for some reason you don't already own a copy of BJZ, you can download it here for free in pdf format: https://ijmp.org/?p=2189

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Thank you for that link Eliot. I skimmed through some of your book today during a few minutes of free time. A very quick skim. I gotta say, the parts I read were not terrible. :D Although there were some things I don't agree with, I found myself agreeing with more than not. I look forward to being able to take a more comprehensive look in the next week before I get back to work as there are a couple subject matters that really peaked my interest. Maybe I will have some further questions and comments or maybe I will just keep them to myself. This really isn't the right forum for any kind of legitimate discussion on anything to do with gambling or AP.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

What do you call a weasal that hides behind a fictitious username and anti-doxxing rules to defame/smear/impugn someone that uses their real name. I call him KJ THE WEASAL!!!

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Redietz was expounding on this very thing, hiding behind phony names and attacking those that use their real names. However, he has been strangely quiet of KJ doing this to Eliot.

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RED is too busy trying to spin the new figures on age of deaths and the lack of risk to worry about this.

He has to be sick seeing America reopening, people laughing about masks and out enjoying their lives.

And getting ready to advise us on not forgetting the lessons of the 1212 Virus that almost killed Genghis Khan.

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Originally Posted by Eliot

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Originally Posted by Bob21

One of my favorite chapters in your book, The Blackjack Zone is "The True Cost of Making a Mistake", where you basically say it's not that important if you make a mistake here and there. I'm sorry if I messed up summarizing the chapter, but I think you were basically saying you can still have a winning game and make some mistakes. As you know, this goes against almost everything you hear from the so-called bj pros, which is why I liked this chapter. But doesn't what you say in this chapter somewhat support that you don't need to know all the indexes, which somewhat lines up with Don's I18, because learning fewer indexes is kind of like making mistakes with the indexes you don't know. Anyway not a big deal..

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I completely disagree. Mistakes have one-time fixed costs. Making a choice to learn less has a lifetime cost. APs get all over folks who make small errors, but then side with those who promote knowing less. This is the exact opposite of how I think about the game. Mistakes will happen, but we should all learn as much as we can and keep on learning.

Don could have written something like, The I-18 is a good starting point. Don't card count in a casino knowing fewer indices that this. But, the I-18 is just a starting point. I encourage you to learn more.That is nearly the opposite of what he said:

"...if you have just mastered true count and were about to embark upon your study of the index-number matrix, I have saved you a great deal of work. Learn the plays in the chart and forget about the rest. You can trust me that you won’t be missing much."

Here is what Grosjean wrote about the I-18 in CAA:

" ... the counter cannot afford to just 'throw away' indices and money. Let's try to improve our perspective. In grade school, if you scored 100 on a quiz, your parents were satisfied. What if you came home and told them you got a 90, or a 75? In my high school, 75 was nearly a failing grade, and 90 was only a B. Some of us probably would have run away from home before showing our parents a quiz score of 85 ..."

Just as a point of reference, the phrase "you can trust me" is the opposite of what an intellectual should do when he pursues the study of a new subject. A good student doubts everything.

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Okay, I'm going to have to disagree with you here a little. When someone is writing a book like Blackjack Attack, I think there is some literate leeway you have to give them. To me the main take away in Don's book was that each index play didn't have the same value, and he outlined their value in order. I had started playing bj before Blackjack Attack was written and had memorized a lot of index plays, so this was good news. While I didn't throw them all away, his book helped me to understand the importance of each one.

Regardless of how Don worded some parts of his book, I think everybody would understand knowing more index - or going with a more advanced counting system - will get you more. That almost goes without saying. I mean Don comes right out and says his I18 gets you 90% of what you need. So that means there is still 10% left on the table, if you want to strive for perfection.

I also think anybody that has read Blackjack Attack has probably read a lot of bj books, so they have a pretty good understanding of indexes, and all the different counting systems. When I started out, I tried to learn a more advanced counting system, but overtime downgraded to hi lo, and sometimes I side counted aces and sevens, along with keeping subliminal track of which low cards I've seen. This seemed to work best for me, for the games I was playing.

One thing I learned while on Blackjack Apprenticeship's forum that I thought was good advice was their emphasis on spread. They really preached spread! They said spread as much as possible and don't worry about backoffs. Now I didn't agree with the second part about ignoring the potential of backoffs, but their emphasis on spread hit home.

Their point was spreading a little more will get you much more than any higher level counting system or learning more indexes. Their point was if you want to win 15% more than spread 15% more, rather than learning more indexes. Obviously, the key is not getting caught, because spread is the main way casinos catch counters. In my neck of the woods, it's probably the only way to get caught. I've had pit bosses tell me this is all they look for, a person's spread.

I guess that is why there are so many debates on this, and it'll never be settled. It depends on what someone's motives are for the game.

Anyway, it's been an interesting thread. It's nice to see someone new on here, and not have to constantly read one of Kj's rants. They all blur together and are pretty much the same after a while. I also learned about Mickey's college president uncle retiring on the gulf coast, and his views of AP life. That was a refreshing candid take on APs.

And I'm surprised Bosox forum police hasn't stopped by this thread today to try to shut it down again, since it went over 100 posts. This is usually too many for Bosox. He must be taking the day off today from his forum police detective work.

Eliot, I would like to ask you a couple of questions about your $6,000 win. You did claim this represented your best year, but you didn't say how many years you were red chipping or how many hours you were playing in a year, and this makes a big difference. Even Don S has admitted to having more than one losing year so I think KJ has been a little unfair to you.

Most of my blackjack play has been at the red chip level. The local table limits in my area are max of $100 and sometimes $200 so it is kind of hard to do anything other than red chip. Now I've had years that were quite good, approaching $60 an hour but only about 200 hours of play time. On the other hand, I had years where I put in almost 900 hours, but only made like $7.55 an hour. Also I had losing years. So it is kind of hard to say a $6,000 win isn't very good at the red chip level without knowing more info.

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Originally Posted by Bob21

Okay, I'm going to have to disagree with you here a little. When someone is writing a book like Blackjack Attack, I think there is some literate leeway you have to give them. To me the main take away in Don's book was that each index play didn't have the same value, and he outlined their value in order. I had started playing bj before Blackjack Attack was written and had memorized a lot of index plays, so this was good news. While I didn't throw them all away, his book helped me to understand the importance of each one.

Regardless of how Don worded some parts of his book, I think everybody would understand knowing more index - or going with a more advanced counting system - will get you more. That almost goes without saying. I mean Don comes right out and says his I18 gets you 90% of what you need. So that means there is still 10% left on the table, if you want to strive for perfection.

I also think anybody that has read Blackjack Attack has probably read a lot of bj books, so they have a pretty good understanding of indexes, and all the different counting systems. When I started out, I tried to learn a more advanced counting system, but overtime downgraded to hi lo, and sometimes I side counted aces and sevens, along with keeping subliminal track of which low cards I've seen. This seemed to work best for me, for the games I was playing.

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You write with great insight about motives and methods of writing technical material.

If you didn't read the thread where Don and Norm responded to my post, I would encourage you to do so. I found their particular way of responding to my allegations, not merely what they said, to add a great deal of insight. Read the end part of this:

https://www.888casino.com/blog/black...illustrious-18

Cheers & thanks for sharing your thoughts,

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Originally Posted by Eliot

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Originally Posted by Bob21

Okay, I'm going to have to disagree with you here a little. When someone is writing a book like Blackjack Attack, I think there is some literate leeway you have to give them. To me the main take away in Don's book was that each index play didn't have the same value, and he outlined their value in order. I had started playing bj before Blackjack Attack was written and had memorized a lot of index plays, so this was good news. While I didn't throw them all away, his book helped me to understand the importance of each one.

Regardless of how Don worded some parts of his book, I think everybody would understand knowing more index - or going with a more advanced counting system - will get you more. That almost goes without saying. I mean Don comes right out and says his I18 gets you 90% of what you need. So that means there is still 10% left on the table, if you want to strive for perfection.

I also think anybody that has read Blackjack Attack has probably read a lot of bj books, so they have a pretty good understanding of indexes, and all the different counting systems. When I started out, I tried to learn a more advanced counting system, but overtime downgraded to hi lo, and sometimes I side counted aces and sevens, along with keeping subliminal track of which low cards I've seen. This seemed to work best for me, for the games I was playing.

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You write with great insight about motives and methods of writing technical material.

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Eliot, Bob is in fact a good writer without a doubt but much of the material that he covers are not all original thoughts of his own. Bob is good at learning and taking bits and pieces from others and that is a good way to be but in blackjack forums, much of that material is already covered in the archives. So I think your above quote is overblown in nature.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Maxpenn the Cocksucker loves to suck cock. Especially KJ's cock. They dont' call him Maxpenn the Cocksucker for nothing.

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Grow the fuck up Mickeycrimm! You fell for Rob's shit. You were wrong. Be a man and fucking admit it and stop acting like a 6 year old brat.

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Tell your lover MaxPenis to back off, bitch. You motherfuckers don't get to attack me with your queer bullshit and not get attacked back. Fuck you, punk.

Eliot, it is a pleasure to read your comments about gaming. While I came here, initially, about VP, I try to absorb insights about all the other possibilities under the casino roof. My favorite part is taking a step back and thinking, mathematically, can a statement I just read, be a strong possibility. Whether I mentally agree or disagree, I keep my thoughts to myself as I do not want to e called out if I had made a dumb math error.

On that note, there is one poster that periodically put up supporting data that generally humbles me. These unique graphs take me back 40 years and I tend to put up the white flag after ten minutes.

Now I have two posters that will have me using a portion of my brain that has been inactive. Ironically, the investigative side of my brain still works and is firing signals. I have to politely ask, by any chance, are you tableplay?

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Maxpenn the Cocksucker loves to suck cock. Especially KJ's cock. They dont' call him Maxpenn the Cocksucker for nothing.

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Grow the fuck up Mickeycrimm! You fell for Rob's shit. You were wrong. Be a man and fucking admit it and stop acting like a 6 year old brat.

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Tell your lover MaxPenis to back off, bitch. You motherfuckers don't get to attack me with your queer bullshit and not get attacked back. Fuck you, punk.

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Says the vitriolic hobo with a 10 year olds diatribe in his signature line.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Tell your lover MaxPenis to back off, bitch. You motherfuckers don't get to attack me with your queer bullshit and not get attacked back. Fuck you, punk.

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Mickey I don't control MaxPen or anyone else. And you have engaged in this behavior long before you and Maxpen escalated.

Enough of this drawing lines and teams based on the Singer situation. Rob Singer is dead. Not the person but the character. That is all Rob Singer ever was, a made up character as part of fiction writing. Despite that the writer may try to return, this situation is resolved and dead. I don't know whether you were duped or chose to be part of the troll, but it is over. Move on.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Tell your lover MaxPenis to back off, bitch. You motherfuckers don't get to attack me with your queer bullshit and not get attacked back. Fuck you, punk.

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Mickey I don't control MaxPen or anyone else. And you have engaged in this behavior long before you and Maxpen escalated.

Enough of this drawing lines and teams based on the Singer situation. Rob Singer is dead. Not the person but the character. That is all Rob Singer ever was, a made up character as part of fiction writing. Despite that the writer may try to return, this situation is resolved and dead. I don't know whether you were duped or chose to be part of the troll, but it is over. Move on.

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KJ is the Dirty Harry Callahan of VCT now...he will let everyone know what they can talk about and what or what not to move on from

Wait a minute. I'm starting to think the anger here is real. I thought it was all just AP talk. Like the way some black people call each other the 'N' word. You call each other queer gay lovers as a term of endearment, right? Aren't you all homies?