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With all the discussions currently going on about BJTF, wizard of odds, zenzone, this forum, etc, I thought this would be a good time to ask some general question about these forums. I’ve been curious on how all these forums came to be. What is the history behind them? The first forum I signed onto was bj21.com about 2 years ago. My handle was bob32. Don’t remember why I used 32, but bob has always been my go to name.

I’m still a member there but don’t visit it much since it seems pretty dead. I probably should stop the autopay from my credit card so I don’t keep renewing my subscription. I got on that site to ask a blackjack question and the person that answerd it was Don S, so I was very impressed to get a personal reply from the legend himself.

Back to my questions: Why are there so many blackjack forums? Why is one more popular than another? Why did bj21.com somewhat go by the wayside? What is blackjack.info? I also check it out from time to time, but nothing is usually going on there. I’ve been checking out zenzone more than the others due to Moses’s entertaining posts. Yes, I’ve become a Moses groupie too.

The other one I always check out is wizard of odds, mostly because of some good advice from Romes. Why does he only post on that site? I know that’s not a question anybody but him can answer, but I’ve always wondered why I don’t see him on other forums. I listened to his GWAE podcast and thought it was excellent!

This question is mostly for KJ since he seems to know the most about these forums, but anybody can answer. I’m just trying to understand better how and why these different sites came to be...and why some are more popular than others.

I really like this one. It has a lot of good information and people aren’t scared of posting or being banned. It seems like that is a big thing with these different sites...banning people for trivial things. I also like that this site is free, but I don’t know why. I’m sure Dan could charge a token fee and we’d still all be here.

One more question for KJ: Have you ever thought about being on GWAE? I think you'd make a great guest since your play is more in line with the average bj grinder. I really like your adivce. I’ve listened to the podcasts with Joe and Youshi but I have a hard time believing some of their stores. They claimed they made from $300,000 to $400,000 in their first year, starting with next to nothing. And seven figures within two or theee years. I know it’s possible but it’s hard for me to believe. Kj’s stories sound more believable. Anyway, I hope someday you can get on GMAE to tell your story.

The other person who should be on GWAE is Moses. Wow, that would be one for the ages! It’d probably be one of the more popular podcasts with all Moses unique stores and sense of humor.

Yes, I have been asked numerous times to be on GWAE. While I appreciate the compliment that Munchkin, you and others have interest, I don't think that is the best platform for me. I am not a great communicator, either speaking or in written form. I often have trouble getting out just what I want to say and often have to go back and try to re-phrase to try to get my point across. That is bad enough in a written format, even worse as a guest answering questions. :( In addition, I sometimes write things that a short time later I regret, mostly because it is too much information, compromising information. On forums, at least I have a short time to go back and 'clean something up' if I change my mind. On GWAE, once said, it would be out there.


I will give you my experience with the different forums. First forum I came across and the absolute best on the topic of blackjack and blackjack advantage play was blackjackinfo. Great forum, lots of successful players that shared their experiences and knowledge. As a young player, I benefited a great deal. Yes, there was a bit of sniping at one another. I have come to realize that is part of any forum. But looking back, blackjackinfo was minimal compared to today's forums.

The original blackjackinfo shut down in Dec 2011. The Blackjackinfo that you are reading today is a re-incarnation, by different ownership and management, now owned by the same online group that brought WoV and later BJ21. Traffic at all these sites has declined greatly under that groups ownership, in part because some of the membership is uncomfortable with ownership by online casino industry although WoV has many other issues at play. Al Rogers who ran BJ21 for Stanford Wong, now runs blackjackinfo as well as BJ21 for the online group. Al is a great guy, a genuine AP, but he is the lone good point of the whole situation.

So when BJinfo shut down, most of the membership migrated to Qfit's forum, because he made certain promises to change his ways. He didn't keep those promises and it quickly became clear BJTF was only about platform for promoting and selling his products and Norm extracting revenge on the many players he has had issues with over the years. Between bannings and most legit knowledgeable players leaving, BJTF has dwindled to what it is today, a couple "frauds" misleading players, protected by QFIT for the purpose of creating traffic, a very small handful of legit players, guarded in what they really share and a constant flow of newbies (potential new software clients), which is Norm's real desire.

Most of the real and legit players migrated to a private forum run by a long-time member of Tommy Hyland's team. Membership requires you to meet and know current members who vouch for you. If you ask around about this forum, you will get no response, other than maybe "it doesn't exist". ;)

WoV was always on the edge of the Blackjack AP community, because it was not specific to blackjack, but rather blackjack AP was in the larger AP discussion, along with other topic related to casinos and gambling and having nothing to do with casinos and gambling. When I joined it became my favorite because it covered more than just blackjack AP. Over time as a result of Wizard's heavy handed moderator style, WoV has regressed in quality and membership size to what it is today, a shell of what it once was. My guess is that is OK with Shackleford. He made his money. Now it's just a play toy, where some of the loyal membership heaps praise on him. He seems to need that.

So that is sort of the blackjack community Today. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bob21

Back to my questions: Why are there so many blackjack forums? Why is one more popular than another? Why did bj21.com somewhat go by the wayside? What is blackjack.info? I also check it out from time to time, but nothing is usually going on there. I’ve been checking out zenzone more than the others due to Moses’s entertaining posts. Yes, I’ve become a Moses groupie too..

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Thanks Bob 21. KJ has some excellent posts at ZZ that go back a few years. To say KJ and I are friends would be a stretch as I'm sure he agrees. But we are in the same profession and I do respect him. The reason is because he is consistent and stands up for what he believes in no matter who it's against or what price is paid.

My idea sort of piggy backed off what KJ had been doing. Norm deletes posts and BJTF is his own little world of make believe, with puppets, and those who fear the ruler of the evil empire. Much like the Conway Twitty song "It's only Make Believe."

People see us everywhere.
They think Norm really cares.
But what they can't conceive
It's not real and only Make Believe

For me, ZZ is simply an extension of the posts I made at BJTF, only now with free of speech and to expose BJTF for the fantasies and lies they project and the puppets they protect. It may not always be real good. But it is always real. And that scares people at BJTF, so they call it crazy because it's their only defense. Have you yet to see one of them come over and challenge me? No, and you won't because most are not even real and the ones who are real are scared shitless of Norm Whatthefuucker.

So T3 calls ZZ misfits because it's primarily a group that was banned from the fantasy world of BJTF. T3 is like the little guy saying "Norm da plane, da plane."
However, if you do a little research of T3 and others. They've been banned from many forums and easy to identity when a Dummy goes on under a different name. He just gets drilled. His volumes of words on other sites are of no value whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Bob21

This question is mostly for KJ since he seems to know the most about these forums, but anybody can answer. I’m just trying to understand better how and why these different sites came to be...and why some are more popular than others..

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Yes. KJ is an excellent resource. HE should consider starting his own newsletter.

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Originally Posted by Bob21

The other person who should be on GWAE is Moses. Wow, that would be one for the ages! It’d probably be one of the more popular podcasts with all Moses unique stores and sense of humor.

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I call 'em like I see 'em. Like you said, I don't put my finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing. I'd probably need body guards to protect me against Norm and his little Army of nerds carrying water pistols.

Man, this Bob dude has a serious crush on Moses ��

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Man, this Bob dude has a serious crush on Moses ��

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It's called mutual respect. It's not like queers or anything. If that were the case, we'd wear our hair and clothes like...YOURS. LOL

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Originally Posted by Moses

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Man, this Bob dude has a serious crush on Moses ��

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It's called mutual respect. It's not like queers or anything. If that were the case, we'd wear are hair and clothes like...YOURS. LOL

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Yes, mutual respect...I`ve heard it called that before.....and its "our" hair and clothes, not "are"....damn spellcheck huh?

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Yes, mutual respect...I`ve heard it called that before.....and its "our" hair and clothes, not "are"....damn spellcheck huh?

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Woo Baby! Not THAT was one helluva comeback. I thought you trolls had more in you than that?

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Originally Posted by Moses

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Yes, mutual respect...I`ve heard it called that before.....and its "our" hair and clothes, not "are"....damn spellcheck huh?

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Woo Baby! Not THAT was one helluva comeback. I thought you trolls had more in you than that?

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Sorry to disappoint you...and please, save the “baby’s” for Bob :)

Unlike you, I don't go around inquiring about that sort of thing. Hey, if two guys want to play ball? Who is pitchin and who is catchin is none of my concern.

Not the case for you? Please check for spelling and English errors before your answer. I know that is a high priority for nerds.

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Originally Posted by Moses

Unlike you, I don't go around inquiring about that sort of thing. Hey, if two guys want to play ball? Who is pitchin and who is catchin is none of my concern.

Not the case for you? Please check for spelling and English errors before your answer. I know that is a high priority for nerds.

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It wasn`t an inquiry, it was a statement .....and I was just trying to help...glad to see you edited and corrected it :)

I realize you are quite concerned about safe sex. That's why you mark your camels that kick.

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Originally Posted by Moses

I realize you are quite concerned about safe sex. That's why you mark your camels that kick.

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I have no clue what any of that means, so I won`t attempt a response at it....why so touchy?....you fired the first queer volley, I just made a statement you guys seemed fond of eachother

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Originally Posted by Keystone

I have no clue what any of that means, so I won`t attempt a response at it..

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You're about as sharp as a bowling ball there aren't ya? Sorry about interrupting the thread Bob21. No worries. Dan will come along and delete the posts, like usual with Keystone.

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Originally Posted by Moses

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Originally Posted by Keystone

I have no clue what any of that means, so I won`t attempt a response at it..

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You're about as sharp as a bowling ball there aren't ya? Sorry about interrupting the thread Bob21. No worries. Dan will come along and delete the posts, like usual with Keystone.

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Yes, I`m sorry too Bob...hopefully you`re not as sensitive as Moses...you guys can get back to normally scheduled programming :)

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Yes, I`m sorry too Bob...hopefully you`re not as sensitive as Moses...you guys can get back to normally scheduled programming :)

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Sensitive? They were jokes that you obviously didn't understand. Do I really need to explain them to you simpleton? You probably should keep your trolling in the minor leagues in the future.

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Originally Posted by Moses

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Yes, I`m sorry too Bob...hopefully you`re not as sensitive as Moses...you guys can get back to normally scheduled programming :)

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Sensitive? They were jokes that you obviously didn't understand. Do I really need to explain them to you simpleton? You probably should keep your trolling in the minor leagues in the future.

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Yes, obviously lol.....as far as Dan goes, I think he will see I said nothing inappropriate....you, my good man, started in with the homosexual talk....you`re not gonna beat me up are you? :eek:

Okay. Picture 3 guys having a conversation in a sports book. A guy walks up and says, "Man this Bob dude has a serious crush on Moses." So Moses says post 5.

Essentially, I called you a queer, as a joke response because you levied the first insult directed at one but really both. The guy now has two choices. He can either man up or walk away. Either way, he looks like a dipshit loser., i.e Keystone.

Now in real life one of the 3 of us would've knocked you on your ass. But on a forum, I pretty much called you a camel fucker in post #11. Geesh. In the words of Singer.

Wise UP

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Man, this Bob dude has a serious crush on Moses ��

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Hey Keystone, you aren’t too far from being wrong, but just not in the way you think.

What do I like about Moses? First, he has a creative sense of humor. When he puts someone down, it’s not just by name calling, although that is part of his repertoire. Second, he doesn’t back down from anybody.

Have you seen the recent exchanges between Moses and the gang from BJTF? There are a couple self righteous APs at BJTF that are throwing some pretty nasty insults his way, knowing he can’t respond. Most people would go in a shell with this many people firing away at them. Moses? It doesn’t phase him. He comes at them with two barrels blazing...and I thought did an excellent job of putting them in their place.

So yeah, I guess you could say I have a crush on Moses, if that’s what you want to call it. I encourage you to go over to zenzone and catch up on some of his recent posts. He’s getting a lot of views (think groupies). Who knows, if you start going over there, you might become one too. Lol.

Btw, blackhole thinks I have a crush on kJ. I enjoy kj’s posts too but they don’t have the low brow Midwest humor you see in Moses’s.

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Originally Posted by Moses

Okay. Picture 3 guys having a conversation in a sports book. A guy walks up and says, "Man this Bob dude has a serious crush on Moses." So Moses says post 5.

Essentially, I called you a queer, as a joke response because you levied the first insult directed at one but really both. The guy now has two choices. He can either man up or walk away. Either way, he looks like a dipshit loser., i.e Keystone.

Now in real life one of the 3 of us would've knocked you on your ass. But on a forum, I pretty much called you a camel fucker in post #11. Geesh. In the words of Singer.

Wise UP

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Camel fucker...hmmm ,interesting.....Bob`s right, your unique stories and humor are unsurpassed lol

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Originally Posted by Bob21

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Man, this Bob dude has a serious crush on Moses ��

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Hey Keystone, you aren’t too far from being wrong, but just not in the way you think.

What do I like about Moses? First, he has a creative sense of humor. When he puts someone down, it’s not just by name calling, although that is part of his repertoire. Second, he doesn’t back down from anybody.

Have you seen the recent exchanges between Moses and the gang from BJTF? There are a couple self righteous APs at BJTF that are throwing some pretty nasty insults his way, knowing he can’t respond. Most people would go in a shell with this many people firing away at them. Moses? It doesn’t phase him. He comes at them with two barrels blazing...and I thought did an excellent job of putting them in their place.

So yeah, I guess you could say I have a crush on Moses, if that’s what you want to call it. I encourage you to go over to zenzone and catch up on some of his recent posts. He’s getting a lot of views (think groupies). Who knows, if you start going over there, you might become one too. Lol.

Btw, blackhole thinks I have a crush on kJ. I enjoy kj’s posts too but they don’t have the low brow Midwest humor you see in Moses’s.

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Hi Bob, glad to converse with you...Yes, the above that you stated and that I highlighted was all I was saying....You seem like a nice, level headed person, and not a hothead like Moses....Yikes, he`s a scary guy :eek:

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Hi Bob,:

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Wasn't that a drinking game back in college? Never mind Key stoned you won't understand.

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Originally Posted by Keystone

You seem like a nice, level headed person, and not a hothead like Moses....Yikes, he`s a scary guy :eek:

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Why thank you! Rumor has it they a seeking a new moderator at BJTF considering Norm can no longer do his job. Hmmm. What about Bob?

Never mind Key stoned you won't understand.

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Originally Posted by Moses

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Hi Bob,:

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Wasn't that a drinking game back in college? Never mind Key stoned you won't understand.

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Originally Posted by Keystone

You seem like a nice, level headed person, and not a hothead like Moses....Yikes, he`s a scary guy :eek:

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Why thank you! Rumor has it they a seeking a new moderator at BJTF considering Norm can no longer do his job. Hmmm. What about Bob?

Never mind Key stoned you won't understand.

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Key stoned...absolutely brilliant, seriously....Bob sure is right, any room for me on Team Moses? I may be developing a little crush of my own lololololololololololol

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Key stoned...absolutely brilliant, seriously....Bob sure is right, any room for me on Team Moses? I may be developing a little crush of my own lololololololololololol

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Let's see what I can do. Dan, I will trade you Flash, two of his puppets, and a first round future newbie at BJTF for Key Stoned.

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Originally Posted by Moses

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Key stoned...absolutely brilliant, seriously....Bob sure is right, any room for me on Team Moses? I may be developing a little crush of my own lololololololololololol

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Let's see what I can do. Dan, I will trade you Flash, two of his puppets, and a first round future newbie at BJTF for Key Stoned.

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WOW, the humor/insult onslaught continues....I feel like I`m in the middle of downtown Baghdad during Desert Storm....I am seriously outgunned here :(

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Originally Posted by Keystone

WOW, the humor/insult onslaught continues....I feel like I`m in the middle of downtown Baghdad during Desert Storm....I am seriously outgunned here :(

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Now THAT was FUNNY. Okay, I will throw in T3 - (Hector, da plane, Norm, da plane). But I WANT SINGER. And he has to promise to do Karaoke and dance like Rob on Everybody Loves Raymond.

Geez, I'm running out of bargaining chips. How am I going to get Crimm, Blackhole, and Monet?

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Camel fucker...

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Q: Why are camels called "ships of the desert?"

A: Because they're filled with arab semen (sic).

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Yes, I have been asked numerous times to be on GWAE. While I appreciate the compliment that Munchkin, you and others have interest, I don't think that is the best platform for me. I am not a great communicator, either speaking or in written form. I often have trouble getting out just what I want to say and often have to go back and try to re-phrase to try to get my point across. That is bad enough in a written format, even worse as a guest answering questions. :( In addition, I sometimes write things that a short time later I regret, mostly because it is too much information, compromising information. On forums, at least I have a short time to go back and 'clean something up' if I change my mind. On GWAE, once said, it would be out there.


I will give you my experience with the different forums. First forum I came across and the absolute best on the topic of blackjack and blackjack advantage play was blackjackinfo. Great forum, lots of successful players that shared their experiences and knowledge. As a young player, I benefited a great deal. Yes, there was a bit of sniping at one another. I have come to realize that is part of any forum. But looking back, blackjackinfo was minimal compared to today's forums.

The original blackjackinfo shut down in Dec 2011. The Blackjackinfo that you are reading today is a re-incarnation, by different ownership and management, now owned by the same online group that brought WoV and later BJ21. Traffic at all these sites has declined greatly under that groups ownership, in part because some of the membership is uncomfortable with ownership by online casino industry although WoV has many other issues at play. Al Rogers who ran BJ21 for Stanford Wong, now runs blackjackinfo as well as BJ21 for the online group. Al is a great guy, a genuine AP, but he is the lone good point of the whole situation.

So when BJinfo shut down, most of the membership migrated to Qfit's forum, because he made certain promises to change his ways. He didn't keep those promises and it quickly became clear BJTF was only about platform for promoting and selling his products and Norm extracting revenge on the many players he has had issues with over the years. Between bannings and most legit knowledgeable players leaving, BJTF has dwindled to what it is today, a couple "frauds" misleading players, protected by QFIT for the purpose of creating traffic, a very small handful of legit players, guarded in what they really share and a constant flow of newbies (potential new software clients), which is Norm's real desire.

Most of the real and legit players migrated to a private forum run by a long-time member of Tommy Hyland's team. Membership requires you to meet and know current members who vouch for you. If you ask around about this forum, you will get no response, other than maybe "it doesn't exist". ;)

WoV was always on the edge of the Blackjack AP community, because it was not specific to blackjack, but rather blackjack AP was in the larger AP discussion, along with other topic related to casinos and gambling and having nothing to do with casinos and gambling. When I joined it became my favorite because it covered more than just blackjack AP. Over time as a result of Wizard's heavy handed moderator style, WoV has regressed in quality and membership size to what it is today, a shell of what it once was. My guess is that is OK with Shackleford. He made his money. Now it's just a play toy, where some of the loyal membership heaps praise on him. He seems to need that.

So that is sort of the blackjack community Today. :rolleyes:

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KewlJ, thank you for this detailed background. That helps me put the pieces together. I’m with you on not wanting to do an interview on GWAE. I wouldn’t do it either if I was ever asked (which I know won’t happen) for the reasons you gave.

It’s interesting that you see Don Schlesinger on most of these sites. Is he getting paid to be on them or is he doing this out of the goodness of his heart? It’s great seeing someone like Don posting, and mixing it up with some of the posters.

You didn’t mention anything about zenzone but I figured it is one of those more obscure forums. I wouldn’t have even known about it if it wasn’t for someone on BJTF pointing out that Moses was posting over there. Over time, it looks like he’s developed his own fan club on zenzone, so maybe in the future zenzone will be called Moses’ zone. I like the way Moses calls it his own little island.

One of my favorite posters on BJTF is Slealth. He doesn’t get involved in the snipping and name calling too much. But I agree, you need a little of this otherwise these forums wouldn’t be much fun and nobody would be on them. The issue I see is people need to get a thicker skin and not take some of these attacks so personal. I like a good put down, even if it’s directed at me.

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Originally Posted by Bob21

One of my favorite posters on BJTF is Slealth. He doesn’t get involved in the snipping and name calling too much. But I agree, you need a little of this otherwise these forums wouldn’t be much fun and nobody would be on them. The issue I see is people need to get a thicker skin and not take some of these attacks so personal. I like a good put down, even if it’s directed at me.

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Stealth is a cool poster. Unfortunately, you are correct. I don't know why the attacks are necessary. But I remember my first time ever on a forum. I'd ordered Norm's products and he told me to sign up. At the time, I was getting 86ed everywhere I played and treated rudely by casino personnel. But going to BJTF was like seeking a shelter and then having everyone beat the crap out of you once your arrived. So, after about 3 years, I figured out it was better to give than receive.

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Originally Posted by Bob21

You didn’t mention anything about zenzone but I figured it is one of those more obscure forums. I wouldn’t have even known about it if it wasn’t for someone on BJTF pointing out that Moses was posting over there. Over time, it looks like he’s developed his own fan club on zenzone, so maybe in the future zenzone will be called Moses’ zone. I like the way Moses calls it his own little island.

One of my favorite posters on BJTF is Slealth. He doesn’t get involved in the snipping and name calling too much. But I agree, you need a little of this otherwise these forums wouldn’t be much fun and nobody would be on them. The issue I see is people need to get a thicker skin and not take some of these attacks so personal. I like a good put down, even if it’s directed at me.

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Stealth: while I don't know him, has always come off as knowledgeable and very professional to me. I know he is involved in team play, but really don't know what team or what other members, not that I would say so if I did, but I really don't.

Zenzone: Zenzone originated from the old blackjackinfo. It was a subsection where players could post all of the garbage, without it clogging up the main forum. Maybe that is what made blackjackinfo work. When blackjackinfo shut down, Ken Smith sold off zenzone (or maybe just gave it) to a member known as Zengrifter, another longterm member of the community, who has a long history with Norm (QFIT). Zengrifter as everyone expected was the very first person Norm banned at BJTF, breaking his promise not to retaliate against those he had previous issues with.

So some of us that got banned by Norm showed up at Zenzone to post a bit. There was a little bit of blackjack discussion, but mostly just a place to vent about Norm. And the great part, Norm read every word. We know this because he often commented about things posted there. So if you wanted to post something to/about Norm, you did it at ZZ, knowing he would read it. ;)

A really strange little tidbit about Zenzone: I was banned at WoV for something I posted at Zenzone. :confused: (I'll pause here for a second while THAT sinks in)

It was something I posted to stab at Norm. Norm read it, cried to Mike Shackleford, who banned me "for something posted on another forum". I can guarantee Shackleford never read another thing at Zenzone before that or since that. He just read that because crybaby Norm, cried to him.

Again, shame on Michael Shackleford for both allowing himself to be played and bullied by QFIT and getting involved in something he really had no idea what it was all about.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

It was something I posted to stab at Norm. Norm read it, cried to Mike Shackleford, who banned me "for something posted on another forum". I can guarantee Shackleford never read another thing at Zenzone before that or since that. He just read that because crybaby Norm, cried to him.
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Hmmm. I don't recall you ever saying anything derogatory about Norm.:D I wonder which thread go him so upset?:cool:

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Originally Posted by Moses

Hmmm. I don't recall you ever saying anything derogatory about Norm.:D I wonder which thread go him so upset?:cool:

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I can tell you, if you really want to know, but most here have heard this story too many times. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I can tell you, if you really want to know, but most here have heard this story too many times. :rolleyes:

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You probably told me and I forgot. Fire away. Bob and K-stoned might get a kick out of it too.

So after, Norm/Qfit banned me at his site, he showed up at WoV to continue our "feud". Norm was a member at WoV, but at that time had not posted in over 5 1/2 years, so he literally was chasing me around the internet to continue this feud. So one of the first things Norm does is contact Mike Shackleford 19 times in a 24 hour period demanding that Shackleford ban me. I mean, 19 times! How neurotic is that?

I know this because two different moderators at WoV provided this information. They obviously got it from Shackleford, who must also have found Norm's behavior so bizarre and neurotic that he shared it with two moderators.

Since I was prohibited from talking about Norm at WoV, I posted this information at Zenzone, exposing just how freaking crazy Norm Wattenberger is. I suspect that is what set Norm crying. I exposed what a freaking nut job he is. So he cried to Mike. And Mike banned me just as Norm was demanding.

After Mike banned me, Mike and I were still communicating privately. Mike was trying to explain in inexplicable actions. Mike exact words: "I consider Norm a friend. He had done a favor with some blackjack work for me and when he asked me for this favor in return, I couldn't say no"

This is when I lost all respect for Michael Shackleford. And until he rights this wrong....that he himself knows was wrong, he will never be right in my book. It will be 3 years next month. I honestly can't believe Shackleford has not stepped up and done the right thing. He just is not the man I thought him to be. Wattenberger is completely neurotic and crazy. Shackleford, just allowed himself to be bullied by this complete nut job. Mike wasn't man enough to stand up and say that's not how it works.

And by the way, when I say Norm/QFIT chased me around the internet to continue this feud. WoV was not the only site. QFIT went to BJ21, 2+2 poker forums, gamblingforum (where a half dozen or so of us here were at prior to here). At each of these forums he created an account just to continue our feud. And at each of these forums he demanded that the forum owner/administrator ban me. Not a single forum owner did. Each told Norm to pound sand. Only Shackleford allowed himself to be bullied in this manner.

And if I had to guess, I would guess, Norm is here. One of the several KJ attackers. I also wonder if he has contacted Dan Druff. I don't expect Dan to confirm or deny, but I would not be the least bit surprised. :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Norm is here:

---

Hmmm. I wonder who that could be? The adventures of stormin Normin. I just assume everyone is Norm cuz he's so damn sneaky. lol Hell, I once had a nightmare and woke up thinking I was Norm. Ugh!

There have been a few that pop in for a few posts that me think, could that be???? There was one short timer really on your ass that sounded way out there like T3.

Good/Interesting/Informative posts KJ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

And by the way, when I say Norm/QFIT chased me around the internet to continue this feud. WoV was not the only site. QFIT went to BJ21, 2+2 poker forums, gamblingforum (where a half dozen or so of us here were at prior to here). At each of these forums he created an account just to continue our feud. And at each of these forums he demanded that the forum owner/administrator ban me. Not a single forum owner did. Each told Norm to pound sand. Only Shackleford allowed himself to be bullied in this manner.

And if I had to guess, I would guess, Norm is here. One of the several KJ attackers. I also wonder if he has contacted Dan Druff. I don't expect Dan to confirm or deny, but I would not be the least bit surprised. :rolleyes:

---

Yeah, I agree with Moses. Thanks for taking the time and sharing all this with us. I have read your Norm thread on the gamblingforum and saw Norm did respond to you a couple times. It was a long thread and took me a while to get through, but I still enjoyed reading it. I guess I’m kind of like a little old lady...I like some good gossip.

Does Don get along with the bj community and Norm? I noticed it took him a while to get elected to the bj hall of fame. I don’t know all the details but I’ve read somewhere it has to do with his prickly personality. If you rub him the wrong way, I’ve seen he can go off on people.

Also, thanks for filling me in on zenzone. I’ve read a lot of blackjack books but I’m fairly new to forums. I wish now I’d gotten involved in them a long time ago. These forums have definitely helped my bj play. I’ve learned things from them you’d never learn in books.

And some of the on-going feuds are interesting from an entertainment standpoint. You can see there are various clicks and sides taken. Three/Dummy is an interesting character. He can really write a lot without saying much. He posts so much I’ve always wondered when he found time to do anything else, much less play bj.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob21

Does Don get along with the bj community and Norm? I noticed it took him a while to get elected to the bj hall of fame. I don’t know all the details but I’ve read somewhere it has to do with his prickly personality. If you rub him the wrong way, I’ve seen he can go off on people..

---

Whoa. I'm sure glad I don't have that problem. :eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob21

Three/Dummy is an interesting character. He can really write a lot without saying much. He posts so much I’ve always wondered when he found time to do anything else, much less play bj.

---

Man...now there is an understatement. But a good one. Ask him what time it is and he'll tell everyone within range how to build a watch. How he watches others watch their watch.

Good spot for my T3/cat joke if you haven't heard it. I'll see if I can find it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob21

Does Don get along with the bj community and Norm? I noticed it took him a while to get elected to the bj hall of fame. I don’t know all the details but I’ve read somewhere it has to do with his prickly personality. If you rub him the wrong way, I’ve seen he can go off on people.

---

I don't know the situation as to why it took so long for Don to be elected to the Blackjack Hall of Fame. I suspect there was some politics involved.

Don and Norm are friends and have been for like 40 years according to BOTH of them. When the T3 situation first began and several of us challenged those ridiculous claims, Don stayed uncharacteristically quiet. I am guess that was due to his friendship with Norm. He didn't want to be on the side challenging the fraud that Norm was protecting, so he just stayed quiet.

And so those claims went on for a couple more years. I think at that point Don finally said enough is enough and challenged and completely debunked T3 claims, just as several of us attempted to do 2 years prior. I am sure Norm was not pleased about this. I have often wondered, about the private conversations that must have had regarding this.

I personally think very highly of Don Schlesinger. I had just a couple private communications with him several years ago, and he has always been readily accessible to almost anyone on one of several forums that he participates on. You describe him as "prickly" and I think that is a very fair characterization. There are times I could do without the proper grammar and spelling corrections, especially when critical blackjack question has been raised and he responds with a spelling correction, rather than stay on topic. But Don was a teacher for a period, and I am guessing that is just who he is. It is what it is. :cool:

I think most members of the blackjack Hall of Fame are or were fulltime professional players at least at some point, meaning at some point in timet heir livelihood depended on blackjack. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that was ever the case with either Don or Norm. I wonder if that is held against either. In my opinion, both deserve to be in the hall of fame because of their contribution to the blackjack community and the many players, professional and recreational that have benefited from those contributions, Don's Blackjack Attack 3, and Norm's software products.

I am able to separate my personal feelings from the contributions worthy of consideration. But I wonder if all the voting members are able to do that. I mean Norm in particular has rubbed one hell of a lot of people including BJHoF members the wrong way. Pretty hard to vote for someone you just can't stand. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Zenzone: Zenzone originated from the old blackjackinfo. It was a subsection where players could post all of the garbage, without it clogging up the main forum. Maybe that is what made blackjackinfo work. When blackjackinfo shut down, Ken Smith sold off zenzone (or maybe just gave it) to a member known as Zengrifter, another longterm member of the community, who has a long history with Norm (QFIT). Zengrifter as everyone expected was the very first person Norm banned at BJTF, breaking his promise not to retaliate against those he had previous issues with.

So some of us that got banned by Norm showed up at Zenzone to post a bit. There was a little bit of blackjack discussion, but mostly just a place to vent about Norm.

---

It’s interesting to see what’s been going on at blackjack the forum lately. Zenzone and Moses have been getting so much press, Norm recently asked his minions to please stop discussions about ZZ. This is interesting in light of Norm in the past discussing (really making disparaging comments) about ZZ on his forum. I remember him calling it an anti-Semitic site.

It looks like people on BJTF have been lurking on this forum and Zenzone and then feeding off it. Probably because nothing much interesting is going on over there now...and they always need someone to attack.

Even though Moses has been banned from BJTF, he appears to be somewhat controlling the narrative on that forum recently. That’s quite a skill set.

As far as Norm, he does seem to be selective in how he enforces his own rules. With his favorites, he allows them to call people names and attack them without doing anything. If someone’s not his favorite, he puts them in “time out” (basically bans them for 3 days or some time interval). It reminds me of a kindergarten teacher and what she does to someone when they misbehave. Who knew these forums would be so much like kindergarten?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob21

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kewlJ

Zenzone: Zenzone originated from the old blackjackinfo. It was a subsection where players could post all of the garbage, without it clogging up the main forum. Maybe that is what made blackjackinfo work. When blackjackinfo shut down, Ken Smith sold off zenzone (or maybe just gave it) to a member known as Zengrifter, another longterm member of the community, who has a long history with Norm (QFIT). Zengrifter as everyone expected was the very first person Norm banned at BJTF, breaking his promise not to retaliate against those he had previous issues with.

So some of us that got banned by Norm showed up at Zenzone to post a bit. There was a little bit of blackjack discussion, but mostly just a place to vent about Norm.

---

It’s interesting to see what’s been going on at blackjack the forum lately. Zenzone and Moses have been getting so much press, Norm recently asked his minions to please stop discussions about ZZ. This is interesting in light of Norm in the past discussing (really making disparaging comments) about ZZ on his forum. I remember him calling it an anti-Semitic site.

It looks like people on BJTF have been lurking on this forum and Zenzone and then feeding off it. Probably because nothing much interesting is going on over there now...and they always need someone to attack.

Even though Moses has been banned from BJTF, he appears to be somewhat controlling the narrative on that forum recently. That’s quite a skill set.

As far as Norm, he does seem to be selective in how he enforces his own rules. With his favorites, he allows them to call people names and attack them without doing anything. If someone’s not his favorite, he puts them in “time out” (basically bans them for 3 days or some time interval). It reminds me of a kindergarten teacher and what she does to someone when they misbehave. Who knew these forums would be so much like kindergarten?

---

LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob21

It’s interesting to see what’s been going on at blackjack the forum lately. Zenzone and Moses have been getting so much press, Norm recently asked his minions to please stop discussions about ZZ. This is interesting in light of Norm in the past discussing (really making disparaging comments) about ZZ on his forum. I remember him calling it an anti-Semitic site.

It looks like people on BJTF have been lurking on this forum and Zenzone and then feeding off it. Probably because nothing much interesting is going on over there now...and they always need someone to attack.

Even though Moses has been banned from BJTF, he appears to be somewhat controlling the narrative on that forum recently. That’s quite a skill set.

As far as Norm, he does seem to be selective in how he enforces his own rules. With his favorites, he allows them to call people names and attack them without doing anything. If someone’s not his favorite, he puts them in “time out” (basically bans them for 3 days or some time interval). It reminds me of a kindergarten teacher and what she does to someone when they misbehave. Who knew these forums would be so much like kindergarten?

---

Excellent post Bob. Very astute observation. Your mama didn't raise no dummies. :cool:

Bob-ses is laying it on thick now lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Bob-ses is laying it on thick now lol

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Hey Key Stoned. Guess what day it is. Guess what day it is?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moses

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Bob-ses is laying it on thick now lol

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Hey Key Stoned. Guess what day it is. Guess what day it is?

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It's not even Wednesday! It's a Sunday! ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tasha

It's not even Wednesday! It's a Sunday! ;)

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It's SUPER BOWL Sunday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-CFlDEwBbA


Go easy on the Nachos and Cotton Candy. :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keystone

Bob-ses is laying it on thick now lol

---

Yeah, I thought about you when I made my post. But I couldn’t resist when I saw Norm telling his minions to stop bringing zenzone into his forum. Indirectly, he was telling his minions to stop allowing Moses back on his forum.

It reminded me of another person who the rulers tried to silence. Yes, over 2,000 years ago the Romans tried to silence Christ by putting him to death. But all we know how they ended. His popularity and followers grew after the Romans killed him.

This is kind of what happened to Moses. Norm tried to silence Moses by banishing him from his forum and into the wilderness. But Moses found a forum (Zenzone...also known by some as Moses’ island) that let him preach the Moses gospel (and insult Norm and several others on BJTF constantly, lol).

What happened? At first not much. But with time, word spread that Moses had reappeared on zenzone, and a couple other forums too. Moses fame grew and his followers (really groupies, with most probably coming from BJTF)) grew to where the ruler (Norm) had a hard time controlling his minions, as they were spending more time lurking on other sites than posting on his.

So that’s the story. It’s a story of how someone was thrown out in the wilderness by the ruthless ruler, only to come back stronger than ever with a bigger voice and following.

All kidding aside. Keystone, I don’t agree with everything Moses says, but you got to respect someone who doesn’t backdown and still finds a way to get back at his former antagonist (Norm) from beyond the grave (BJTF). And you got to admit some of Moses posts are classics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob21

But I couldn’t resist when I saw Norm telling his minions to stop bringing zenzone into his forum. Indirectly, he was telling his minions to stop allowing Moses back on his forum..

---

Hmmm. Interesting observation. I didn't think of that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob21

It reminded me of another person who the rulers tried to silence. Yes, over 2,000 years ago the Romans tried to silence Christ by putting him to death. But all we know how they ended. His popularity and followers grew after the Romans killed him.

This is kind of what happened to Moses. Norm tried to silence Moses by banishing him from his forum and into the wilderness. But Moses found a forum (Zenzone...also known by some as Moses’ island) that let him preach the Moses gospel (and insult Norm and several others on BJTF constantly, lol)..

---

I was somewhat lead to exercise my right of free speech and I wasn't about to let them push me around. Close one door and others open.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob21

What happened? At first not much. But with time, word spread that Moses had reappeared on zenzone, and a couple other forums too. Moses fame grew and his followers (really groupies, with most probably coming from BJTF)) grew to where the ruler (Norm) had a hard time controlling his minions, as they were spending more time lurking on other sites than posting on his..

---

I've learned that behind many successful endeavors is someone who is driven because someone else pissed them off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob21

So that’s the story. It’s a story of how someone was thrown out in the wilderness by the ruthless ruler, only to come back stronger than ever with a bigger voice and following..

---

Yes. I'd say Norm has found a foe for life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob21

All kidding aside. Keystone, I don’t agree with everything Moses says, but you got to respect someone who doesn’t backdown and still finds a way to get back at his former antagonist (Norm) from beyond the grave (BJTF). And you got to admit some of Moses posts are classics.

---

I learned a valued lesson early in life. Blood everywhere and it was all mine. So if trouble is unavoidable, and there is no way out, better to run to it than from it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob21

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keystone

Bob-ses is laying it on thick now lol

---

Yeah, I thought about you when I made my post. But I couldn’t resist when I saw Norm telling his minions to stop bringing zenzone into his forum. Indirectly, he was telling his minions to stop allowing Moses back on his forum.

It reminded me of another person who the rulers tried to silence. Yes, over 2,000 years ago the Romans tried to silence Christ by putting him to death. But all we know how they ended. His popularity and followers grew after the Romans killed him.

This is kind of what happened to Moses. Norm tried to silence Moses by banishing him from his forum and into the wilderness. But Moses found a forum (Zenzone...also known by some as Moses’ island) that let him preach the Moses gospel (and insult Norm and several others on BJTF constantly, lol).

What happened? At first not much. But with time, word spread that Moses had reappeared on zenzone, and a couple other forums too. Moses fame grew and his followers (really groupies, with most probably coming from BJTF)) grew to where the ruler (Norm) had a hard time controlling his minions, as they were spending more time lurking on other sites than posting on his.

So that’s the story. It’s a story of how someone was thrown out in the wilderness by the ruthless ruler, only to come back stronger than ever with a bigger voice and following.

All kidding aside. Keystone, I don’t agree with everything Moses says, but you got to respect someone who doesn’t backdown and still finds a way to get back at his former antagonist (Norm) from beyond the grave (BJTF). And you got to admit some of Moses posts are classics.

---

I do?....sorry,just don’t see it...I find his humor to be on the HS level myself...but hey, differing opinions are what make the world go round

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keystone

I do?....sorry,just don’t see it...I find his humor to be on the HS level myself...but hey, differing opinions are what make the world go round

---

You must be exhausted 21Forme. That was a lot of typing for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moses

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keystone

I do?....sorry,just don’t see it...I find his humor to be on the HS level myself...but hey, differing opinions are what make the world go round

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You must be exhausted 21Forme. That was a lot of typing for you.

---

*yawn*...sure clown

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keystone

*yawn*...sure clown

---

Man, I'd hate to be you. All brass. No balls.

An opinion piece on the topic of why some former banished members of BJTF ended up on Zen Zone.

Everyone knows there are two sides to a story and for the most part the overwhelming consensus "at the BJTF" is that a handfull of troublemakers received what they deserved and they are just confirming what most everyone thinks anyway with their angry rants at the Zen Zone. Of course that is the easy way of dismissing it all. But a thinking man who will not settle for the simple answer, will contemplate how and why did this all happen on one board in the first place? Sure people lost their cool at some point in time and knew the inevatable result but how did it get that far?

Simple, if the person running the show is not fully objectionable and open-minded, but instead favors someone that may coinside with his own thoughts or heaven forbid his own agenda, you have a problem. All it takes is to favor one side and silence the other without a constructive unbiased debate. If that unevenness goes on for any sygnificant amount of time the shorted side's frustration mounts to excessive degrees and the obvious happens. The person without a voice losses their composure and reacts and gets removed and labled forever as a troll or thoublemaker.

Meanwhile, the unprofessional moderator, thats right UNPROFESSIONAL MODERATOR gets praised by most of the uninformed members. Little do they know that their uprightous hero can get down and dirty yes dirty with the best of them.

Two sides to every story:

So 2 kids end up in a fist fight on the playground. Sure, 2 sides to the story. But when one of those kids has a history of fighting with dozen of different kids, over many, many years, it is not hard to figure out who the "problem" really is.

Bosox, before you joined, I posted a brief history of the situation. The fact is that when BJnfo shut down and most from that forum migrated to BJTF, there were concerns of Norm renewing feuds and using his position to settle old scores, of which there were many.

Norm assured he would not do so. BUT, that is exactly what occurred.

52 & 53. Two very insightful and excellent posts by Bosox and KJ. Pass me the popcorn Max.

Oh yes, I cannot repost my post# 52 at BJTF to which I would prefer to be open about, but, any talking about the Zen Zone is now forbidden over there.

After making my earlier post today, I spent a little time thinking about the situation and recalling how things played out and I think I bear some responsibility for the failure that is BlackJack the Forum. :(

Like I said, when BJinfo shut down, the membership was looking for a new home. There were a couple small temporary type forum, but we were sort of looking for a permanent type forum that would allow the core group to remain together. It was at this point that Norm Wattenberger announced that he had a paid license to the same software that BJinfo used and could set up an almost identical forum. Norm actually had a forum running linked to his QFIT software site (that is why he had the license) but that forum was completely dead. Any legitimate posters had been driven away.

So when Norm suggested he could set up a forum (which became BJTF), like I said there were a number of members that objected. One was Automatic Monkey, a real smart AP. Others that objected were Creeping Panther, Zengrifter, Bojack, Shadrock (billryan at WoV) and several others. These were all long time players that knew Norm all too well. Zengrifter was the first banned at Norm's new site. Creeping Panther and Bojack, eventually signed on using new handles. Creeping Panther didn't hide his "new" handle too well and was quickly shown the door. Bojack, a long time very successful team manager/player, posted briefly under a new handle and then gave up. AutoMonkey and Shadroch never did migrate to BJTF that I am aware of.

But it was me, who took Norm at his word, that things would be different and encouraged everyone to join. I made the very first post. As a matter of fact, I think I made the first half dozen posts trying to get the ball rolling and begin some good discussion. And I tried really hard at BJTF, for about 4 years, sharing my experiences until I was banned along with the others.

And in the end I was wrong, and the guys that knew Norm best and knew he would not change were proven right. :( What is the definition of "insanity"? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. I fell victim to insanity. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

What is the definition of "insanity"? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. I fell victim to insanity. :(

---

You're not the Lone Ranger on that one.

kewlJ wrote:

"But it was me, who took Norm at his word, that things would be different and encouraged everyone to join. I made the very first post. As a matter of fact, I think I made the first half dozen posts trying to get the ball rolling and begin some good discussion. And I tried really hard at BJTF, for about 4 years, sharing my experiences until I was banned along with the others."

When certain people become big "at least in their own eyes" they often forget where they started! Goes to character.

Unfortunately, who were the big losers with all of those barrings? Of course, it is always the new players looking for sound advice and direction. Who was left standing to give most all of that advice? Well one asshole "with support of others" who is noted for saying that the Hi Low count is only for amateurs and socialites. He constantly preached "more like shoved up their ass" that the only way to survive in the game is learning to use the HI OP2 ace side count period. Some new players took that approach and periodically spoke about how they were doing and progressing. When they posted about some of their experiences I often shook my head about how very little they actually knew about casino comportmert, and how to get away with it. All of this was really sad to read about, and that was only one example of the things that often took place on that biased site. Although, once every six months or so the moderator did chime in with the words "the HI LOW count gets the money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BoSox

Unfortunately, who were the big losers with all of those barrings? Of course, it is always the new players looking for sound advice and direction.?.

---

Can't argue with you there Bosox. I never cared too much about newbie's. However, I respect those such as yourself who took the time to try to help. I got way to caught up in the multitude of Zee posts for awhile. Hell, I was more worried about his game this I was my own...and he didn't give a crap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BoSox

Who was left standing to give most all of that advice? Well one asshole "with support of others" who is noted for saying that the Hi Low count is only for amateurs and socialites. He constantly preached "more like shoved up their ass" that the only way to survive in the game is learning to use the HI OP2 ace side count period. Some new players took that approach and periodically spoke about how they were doing and progressing. When they posted about some of their experiences I often shook my head about how very little they actually knew about casino comportmert, and how to get away with it. All of this was really sad to read about, and that was only one example of the things that often took place on that biased site. Although, once every six months or so the moderator did chime in with the words "the HI LOW count gets the money.

---

You covered a lot of ground in a Flash. I knew my game needed tweaking. Why? For one thing, I was getting tossed right and left. I don't mean we walked to the door together, I said bye, they said see ya later, and we shook hands before departing. They hurled my ass out like I was a frisbee.

The problem then became I had to tighten my spread and frequency considerably and I couldn't play full indices without being preferential shuffled on for the remainder off the session and for life with some dealers. I didn't need Hi Opt II shoved up my ass because it was just a weaker version of the same thing I was already doing. My goal was to gather a collection of thoughts from others in order to form a new approach. One that allowed my hind parts to remain in the chair and be able to return.

For instance, Bosox, IMO, has insurance high on his list of priorities. At the time, it wasn't high on my list. So, I studied and built a game plan around insurance. However, what I learned was the with limited frequency of a large bet allowed, then insurance lost it's value somewhat (in that scenario). The frustration was that every time I had a question, there was Flash and his puppets circumventing my progress. A 30 minute cup of coffee with Don S and Mr. Thorp followed by a brief trip to Gronbogs house would have saved me about 5 years of misery. Now, THAT may well be worth $3,000. But a camp? LOL

RS came in and pitched the last couple of outs with his cake analogy. So I go into the kitchen and ask my lady all about what she is doing while she baking a cake. Where do you buy the ingredients? What makes it so moist? Would it still taste good with dog shit in it? That one didn't go over so well. :cool: I just needed that little extra boost and to realize today's game doesn't have to be as complex as T3 and others make it out to be. Keep it simple with your parts in the right places. Now, the game is easy and fun again.

gamblingforums.com is actually a pretty comical place. there's a guy there who calls himself "TurboGenius" who claims he has a 20% edge on roulette with his bet selections (nothing to do with a biased wheel).

and there's another guy who calls himself "Bago" who posts fake sims showing his roulette system winning millions of dollars

and these 2 guys hate each other as they duel for the title of King of Phony roulette systems

this I found quite comical. This guy is posting what he learned from TurboGenius.

Here it is:



"There is a list of things that Turbo has taught over the years on the forums which I think helped my play a lot.

1. The only way to win is bet a # when there is a better than 35 to 1 chance of it showing

2. You have to focus on predicting current and future bets

3. The only way to win is in the path of repeaters, numbers that show above average better than the payout in a cycle or multiple cycles to make up for the numbers that or sleep or performing below average.

4. Looking at past results = useless info if it wasn't in your session since you started playing.

5. On average in 37/38 spins there will be 12 numbers that don't show so there will 12 numbers that repeat to compensate. This one of the predictable patterns that can be used to have better than 35 to 1 accuracy.

6. Both hot and cold numbers can instantly change states. Meaning hot #'s can stay that way, go cold, or perform at average and vice versa. The key to winning is bet numbers as they become hot.

7. A number can't show twice without showing once, it can't show three times without showing twice etc.

8. You can't lose a single unit by not betting on a number that doesn't show"




And the TurboGenius himself shows his appreciation by responding, saying this:



"and never lost $1.00 because I bet on them and they never appeared.
They aren't potential hot numbers that could produce a profit, so there's no
reason to. They could go hot in the future though, so worth noting them...
there's just no value in betting them at this time."




seriously, you couldn't make this shit up