Fontainebleau alleged to have revoked a $2000 room comp at checkout

Someone contacted me on social media claiming that he had a 3-night room comp at Fontainebleau, but after not playing "enough", his host billed his credit card slightly over $2000 for the "retail" cost of the room.

The guy sent me a copy of the folio, which appears to be legit.

He used $18 worth of minibar stuff, and indeed, on the day of checkout, it shows that all he paid was $18. The following day, it shows a charge for over $2000. The folio also shows the room charges as if they were not comped.

I told him this was likely a scam by his host, where the host did not want a $2000 ding against his own numbers, so he quietly revoked the comp retroactively, the day after the dude checked out.

This is illegal, if it occurred the way the guy said it did.

I am helping him attempt to recover the $2k. I don't know him personally, but I feel bad for him, and I want to help. He is not a member of this forum or my PFA forum.

My advice to him so far:

1) Call the front desk, get the actual manager (not just a shift manager or night manager), and make it very clear that this was a comp room which the host illegally revoked after the fact.

2) Once the front desk fixes it, call the host's supervisor and make a complaint about him.

3) If he cannot get satisfaction, make a Gaming complaint.


Nevada hotel/casinos have a right to revoke comps on the spot, but not retroactively. For example, when you arrive, they could tell you that they are no longer comping your room, and only allow you to check in under a rate. They can also inform you in the middle of your stay that your future nights are no longer comped. However, once you've stayed at a comp rate, they cannot retroactively go back and charge you, because that opens the door to them charging literally any amount of money to customers without their permission, and also denies the customer from making a choice whether to accept the non-comped rate.

Thanks for laying this out clearly. How often do you think this occurs, and do you have any feel as to whether it occurs more frequently for a particular corporate company, or how often at low/middle/high end locations?

Are you aware of any legal or corporate culture differences between LV and AC?

And finally, would any of these arguments have any merit if it's Indian gaming? (I think not but want to hear your opinion).

My initial take: this happened much more often 20 years ago. And Indian gaming pulls this stuff frequently, with more-or-less impunity.

This is simple. All the guy need do is dispute the CC charge of $2k, and be prepared to submit evidence to the bank when asked that he stayed under the 3-night comp. The charge will be immediately reversed, and as soon as the bank receives the proof the bank will permanently close the case. If he doesn't have this back-up documentation, nothing--not even Gaming--can help him.

Also, why did this person find it necessary to go to Dan with this complaint? Is he that incompetent so as not to have the ability to figure this out for himself?

People like this deserve to lose gambling.....if this indeed is a true story to begin with.

Dan Druff what is your basis for calling the reversal of promised or implied comps "illegal" ? I'd call it unethical or perhaps a breach of an implied or actual contract, but not illegal.

As far as this actual situation, did the guy have a written (such as some kind of emailed or mailed offer) for the 3 night room comp, or a verbal promise from the host? Both enforceable but one easier to enforce than the other.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

This, in turn, caused Mohegan to become incredibly stingy with their food/hotel comps at Virgin, and in fact they were revoking them after-the-fact when people would check out -- something unheard of in Vegas, and probably not even legal.

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This happened to me once, early on in my play, after I had resumed playing in Vegas about six years or so ago after a decade or so hiatus. I wasn't playing yet anywhere near the levels I am today, but I did have fifty thousand dollar lines which aren't exactly small (today my lines are much larger). On this trip, we stayed a couple weeks in the resort, and my host wasn't on duty the day we checked out. Another host comp'ed everything off the bill, RFB, leaving just tips.

A couple weeks later while we were on an unrelated trip not in Vegas, but on vacation, I noticed some charges on my credit card I had used for that stay, and contacted the host's assistant, who told me that there had been a "reversal" of comps. I got hold of the host who was indignant that we had stayed so long, and this was the sole reason that didn't want to comp the food (was willing to comp everything else, but not the food). Host was saying that "No one stays two weeks at _________, I got Chinese players with million dollar lines they don't stay that long." That was it, my play actually merited the full RFB ride, just didn't think we should have stayed that long. :D

I actually convinced the host to comp everything and credit the charges back to my credit card, and it didn't help that I had won in the casino too (at least from his point of view, my theo loss did justify all the comps), but the host told me didn't want to see us staying that long again.
What's funny is that eventually I got a different host because that one retired, and there were many subsequent trips where stayed even longer than two weeks, and no one ever complained about how long we stayed, and I always got the full RFB treatment. Just this particular host was very old school and looked at things differently.

Another time at a resort that has this silly policy of "no spa comps on a winning trip," we stayed almost a month at the resort and I was clobbering them. Took them for hundreds of thousands, just under a half million. At the end of the trip, my regular host wasn't present, and the host on duty comp'ed off everything RFB plus the spa charges my wife had accumulated. Probably would have gotten away with it, but my wife thought that there was a spa charge on the bill that she hadn't made, so I had VIP look into it. Well, that was a mistake, because during the course of the investigation my regular host got wind of what had happened and although the hotel did take the unauthorized charge off, the host ended up reversing all the spa charges, and I had to pay for them. This particular resort is now owned by a different outfit, and I am hoping that this policy of "no spa comps for winning players" will be rescinded.

I had another trip from a couple decades or so ago, where the host had agreed to comp everything and that I didn't need to play that trip at all, because I had played like a madman the prior trip. But then come check out time, and the host was saying that couldn't comp most of the charges! because I hadn't played. In that instance, we had a meeting where the word "reneged" was brought up, and the charges were all comp'ed off.
In recent years I have had more than a few trips where I have played absolutely 0, not at all, and still been full RFB and even spa comp'ed, but these days my play is off the charts and I've gone as much as two lengthy trips in a row with little or no play at a given resort without even seeing a bill other than for tips. Two trips in a row with zero action seems to be about the limit though - after that they start complaining. It's not even that I planned to not play, just that maybe for some reason I was playing at a different resort that trip not the one we stayed at, or I just felt like taking a break and got busy with work unrelated to casino play.

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This was many years ago: I have also experienced the flip side of this, where a casino I had never played at but where I knew the Director from when was at another casino invited me in, gave us the largest suite the hotel had - and it was a massive penthouse thousands of square feet in size - set up a private table for me in the casino, with a dealer on stand by for two days, and - I never played.

There were no food charges actually, we dined off property, but the room comp was maintained. 0 bill on check out.

I actually knew up front I was not going to play. I didn't like that Director and wanted to mess with.

I felt a little bad for the dealers who had to stand there for two days with no action, but you actually see this all the time in casinos, reserved tables with idle dealers. These days, if I know I won't be back for a couple days, which I typically do not play every day (although sometimes - I do for stretches), I tell the pit boss to take down the reserved table until I let them know.

One of my local Casinos pulled a last SECOND promotion cancellation when we Players were ALREADY there waiting for the Promotion to start and baffled on why the Promotion didn't start. Player's Club Staff said that the Promotion was cancelled last SECOND because they were rearranging Slot machines. We Players were disgusted and I just walked out. What happened to this guy was much worse than a last SECOND promotion cancellation. I can't believe the Host retroactively cancelled the $2,000 comped room. What a disgusting and dastardly and douchebag move of the Host to do. Player needs to fight this tooth and nail. Host needs to be fired. It would be extra nice if the Player gets his $2,000 back and another $2,000 comp put by the Manager as a sign of goodwill. A LYFT Passenger got charged.90 extra cents and he reported his LYFT Driver for stealing.90 cents from him. LYFT refunded the ENTIRE ride, AND gave him a full credit for his next ride. Hotel Player who got screwed over by his Host needs to do the exact same thing the LYFT Passenger did.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Someone contacted me on social media claiming that he had a 3-night room comp at Fontainebleau, but after not playing "enough", his host billed his credit card slightly over $2000 for the "retail" cost of the room.

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Were play requirements spelled out in advance? It has been a while since I was involved in this kind of situation, but I did have one similar about 12 years ago. I had printed out a copy of the comp offer prior to check-in for my own protection, and when the dispute arose, they pointed to small print at the bottom of the page which clearly stated the offer was dependent on maintaining the same level of play, which I had not done.

You can keep fighting with them, that they are not honoring a comp offer and if you go up the chain, maybe you will win, but the fact is if you did not play the amount expected or required, you are the one not honoring terms.

Do you think about what the comp really is? It is a freebie to get you to return to play at your "normal" or previous level of play. I would guess, usually they will let it go if you don't meet the required or expected amount of play based on previous trips, unless you give them almost nothing at all. But if they want to make an issue and terms are printed right there, why make an issue of it, when you know you (or your friend) was in the wrong?

The FB is losing around -600ks per day so not surprised that they would try and pull stuffs and thing like this, hey hey.

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Originally Posted by soxfan

The FB is losing around -600ks per day so not surprised that they would try and pull stuffs and thing like this, hey hey.

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I keep reading this same number. FB is losing 600k a day. Something is very wrong with that statement. I am not a financial type guy, but I am guessing they are carrying huge debt either from the purchase and finishing of the project, or large companies can even restructure their debt into other areas of the business to make it look differently that it is. I call that paper debt.

But if you only count what they bring in from gambling revenue, from the operation of hotel and restaurants, shops and clubs, most of which are outsized, they are NOT losing 600k a day. For a casino, in which every game on the floor from slots to every table game including sports, is played at a house advantage, it would be almost impossible to really lose money. Would have to be some kind of serious mismanagement, like over paying people, or skimming off the top like the olden days.

And if it is the hotel restaurants, shops ect that are losing money, then again, that sounds like a mis management situation. Casinos are a license to print money. Only these corporate brainiacs can figure a way to lose money or ,make it look on poaper like they are losing money.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

MaxPen, your comment "Casino foods are the worst of the worst" made me smile. And not a good "happy" smile.

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It made him smile because his penny ante video poker and red green blackjack play barely rates for a free hot dog. If he even played rated, which he can't figure out what his story is, alternating between "I have never played rated" to, "Yes I have played rated."

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Originally Posted by MDawg

The UNKewl one was a liar, and like most liars, he was constantly changing his stories, altering time and personnel from one telling to the next. One time he would tell a story about someone, next time he would switch the story around to give himself the lead. He would sit in the casino coffee shop over coffee and pound cake, talking at random about his experiences, posting constantly on internet forums, plotting ways to take down all those he is envious of, never actually entering the casino, afraid like a nervous poodle to even play.

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Casino are only a license to print money if, IF they can get cats in the door who will sit at the tables and play. From what I hear the FB is not bringing in players and the casino is often pretty much empty. In any event, I avoid situation like this by being up-front with my host. I always tell em that if I'm makin the scene solo I will grind 7-8 shoe per day, and if I got a broad with me I will only grind 3 shoe per day, so no misunderstandings, hey hey.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by soxfan

The FB is losing around -600ks per day so not surprised that they would try and pull stuffs and thing like this, hey hey.

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I keep reading this same number. FB is losing 600k a day. Something is very wrong with that statement. I am not a financial type guy, but I am guessing they are carrying huge debt either from the purchase and finishing of the project, or large companies can even restructure their debt into other areas of the business to make it look differently that it is. I call that paper debt.

But if you only count what they bring in from gambling revenue, from the operation of hotel and restaurants, shops and clubs, most of which are outsized, they are NOT losing 600k a day. For a casino, in which every game on the floor from slots to every table game including sports, is played at a house advantage, it would be almost impossible to really lose money. Would have to be some kind of serious mismanagement, like over paying people, or skimming off the top like the olden days.

And if it is the hotel restaurants, shops ect that are losing money, then again, that sounds like a mis management situation. Casinos are a license to print money. Only these corporate brainiacs can figure a way to lose money or ,make it look on poaper like they are losing money.

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They are losing money because they are not getting enough wager to cover the overhead.

Duplicate

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Originally Posted by MDawg

No one with any sense cottons to outed compulsively lying sociopaths, making comments on anything, at all.

So, 'git, like you said you would. The End.

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Originally Posted by kewlj

It's funny because UNKewlJ often rants, crying his eyes out about how "that's NOT the way things are done" - whining with cheese about the way comps work or don't work in Vegas (when he's never been comp'ed much of anything beyond a hot dog) or whining without cheese about how high rollers are treated or not treated in Vegas when he obviously has no idea.

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Rob is correct: the guy should contact the credit card they charged and dispute the charge.

Ah, but first..."Hello, Bob Nersesian?"

Talk to the man who knows.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

but first..."Hello, Bob Nersesian?"

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Over $2000.?

A quick phone call...worth the price, if any.

Explain what happened, ask for advice and if appropriate representation.

Bob or someone there will listen to him and give feedback.

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Originally Posted by redietz

Thanks for laying this out clearly. How often do you think this occurs, and do you have any feel as to whether it occurs more frequently for a particular corporate company, or how often at low/middle/high end locations?

Are you aware of any legal or corporate culture differences between LV and AC?

And finally, would any of these arguments have any merit if it's Indian gaming? (I think not but want to hear your opinion).

My initial take: this happened much more often 20 years ago. And Indian gaming pulls this stuff frequently, with more-or-less impunity.

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Indian gaming you would have the most recourse on something like this.

Just get a bunch of smallpox infected blankets & toss them into the casino that revoked your comp.

If it was to a credit card you can also dispute the credit card transaction. You most likely will not be able to return to the property but why would you want to?

Methinks the credit card dispute will be too subtle for the card company to understand. Especially if it based on a verbal promise from a host. All the hotel will have to do is provide the folio that shows the room charges, although I suppose the folio at checkout that shows only the food charges and nada charged for the room might mean something.

Having multiple credit card processing accounts myself, I know all about "chargebacks." It has happened very rarely to me, but as a merchant, I have won all of them, 100%. Basically, if he doesn't win at the first round and pushes for pre-arbitration, which is the second round for chargeback disputes, Fontainebleau will probably fold its hand. But if they are greedy enough to go all the way to arbitration, which is the third round, the card holder may have to pony up half of those arbitration fees in advance or at least agree to pay 100% of them if he loses, and the cardholder's 50% of those arb fees will be around $250 minimum and could be up to $1500., meaning that if he loses, he will lose not just the $2000. but also $500 - $3000. in arb fees (of course, same goes for the merchant, if THEY lose they will lose all those arb fees).

So, if the chargeback works for the guy in the first or second round, fine, but if it has to go to actual arbitration, might not be worth risking the fees.

And the downside to a chargeback is that it is antagonizing to the merchant, who will never deal with the guy again. There even used to be a website that listed those who had ever done a chargeback (as reported by merchants to the website), and merchants could go to it to look up names before dealing with a new customer.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

Methinks the credit card dispute will be too subtle for the card company to understand.

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Ah, but does that really matter?

I've no experience with such things but were I to instruct VISA not to pay a charge which I dispute in writing I do not think they will try to decide whether or not my objection is too "subtle" fo obey: rather they should just honor my request as a card holder and not pay it, forcing it to the next level.

If in fact they do engage in some sort of evidence weighing at the beginning I'd be shocked.

Instead of possibly going to COURT over this, shouldn't he just report it to the Manager and make the Manager reverse the $2,000 charge? And possibly give him a free room in the near future?

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Originally Posted by MisterV

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Originally Posted by MDawg

Methinks the credit card dispute will be too subtle for the card company to understand.

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Ah, but does that really matter?

I've no experience with such things but were I to instruct VISA not to pay a charge which I dispute in writing I do not think they will try to decide whether or not my objection is too "subtle" fo obey: rather they should just honor my request as a card holder and not pay it, forcing it to the next level.

If in fact they do engage in some sort of evidence weighing at the beginning I'd be shocked.

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Instruct VISA not to pay a charge? You report a disputed charge, they issue a temporary credit to your account, they request any supporting documentation you have that 100% proves your claim, they contact the hotel/casino for any evidence they may have that supports their position, and the side with the indisputable facts wins. It's that simple.

If this guy has rock solid evidence that he was checking into a room that was fully comped without stipulations of any kind which he may not have met, he will easily prevail. But if there is any grey area at all, the charge will stand.

As our GREAT President-elect keeps on preaching to every American: "I will bring simple common sense back to this country".

This is one of those examples.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by MisterV

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Originally Posted by MDawg

Methinks the credit card dispute will be too subtle for the card company to understand.

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Ah, but does that really matter?

I've no experience with such things but were I to instruct VISA not to pay a charge which I dispute in writing I do not think they will try to decide whether or not my objection is too "subtle" fo obey: rather they should just honor my request as a card holder and not pay it, forcing it to the next level.

If in fact they do engage in some sort of evidence weighing at the beginning I'd be shocked.

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Instruct VISA not to pay a charge? You report a disputed charge, they issue a temporary credit to your account, they request any supporting documentation you have that 100% proves your claim, they contact the hotel/casino for any evidence they may have that supports their position, and the side with the indisputable facts wins. It's that simple.

If this guy has rock solid evidence that he was checking into a room that was fully comped without stipulations of any kind which he may not have met, he will easily prevail. But if there is any grey area at all, the charge will stand.

As our GREAT President-elect keeps on preaching to every American: "I will bring simple common sense back to this country".

This is one of those examples.

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Hmm. But it seems that the Host just SAID the hotel room was going to be comped but there was nothing in writing. He'll have an uphill battle if it wasn't put in writing. Hmm. As I write this, could the Host have had a personal grudge against the guest? For example, if the guest ended up being someone who screwed the Host over in the past? You never know. I find it weird that a Host would retroactively reverse the comped room after the guest already left. A personal grudge for being screwed over by the guest in the past would be a viable motive. :/

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Originally Posted by Tasha

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Ah, but does that really matter?

I've no experience with such things but were I to instruct VISA not to pay a charge which I dispute in writing I do not think they will try to decide whether or not my objection is too "subtle" fo obey: rather they should just honor my request as a card holder and not pay it, forcing it to the next level.

If in fact they do engage in some sort of evidence weighing at the beginning I'd be shocked.

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Instruct VISA not to pay a charge? You report a disputed charge, they issue a temporary credit to your account, they request any supporting documentation you have that 100% proves your claim, they contact the hotel/casino for any evidence they may have that supports their position, and the side with the indisputable facts wins. It's that simple.

If this guy has rock solid evidence that he was checking into a room that was fully comped without stipulations of any kind which he may not have met, he will easily prevail. But if there is any grey area at all, the charge will stand.

As our GREAT President-elect keeps on preaching to every American: "I will bring simple common sense back to this country".

This is one of those examples.

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Hmm. But it seems that the Host just SAID the hotel room was going to be comped but there was nothing in writing. He'll have an uphill battle if it wasn't put in writing. Hmm. As I write this, could the Host have had a personal grudge against the guest? For example, if the guest ended up being someone who screwed the Host over in the past? You never know. I find it weird that a Host would retroactively reverse the comped room after the guest already left. A personal grudge for being screwed over by the guest in the past would be a viable motive. :/

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It varies by casino but usually when a host makes a comped reservation you will receive an email confirmation of the reservation from the casino showing the rate as comped.

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by Tasha

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Instruct VISA not to pay a charge? You report a disputed charge, they issue a temporary credit to your account, they request any supporting documentation you have that 100% proves your claim, they contact the hotel/casino for any evidence they may have that supports their position, and the side with the indisputable facts wins. It's that simple.

If this guy has rock solid evidence that he was checking into a room that was fully comped without stipulations of any kind which he may not have met, he will easily prevail. But if there is any grey area at all, the charge will stand.

As our GREAT President-elect keeps on preaching to every American: "I will bring simple common sense back to this country".

This is one of those examples.

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Hmm. But it seems that the Host just SAID the hotel room was going to be comped but there was nothing in writing. He'll have an uphill battle if it wasn't put in writing. Hmm. As I write this, could the Host have had a personal grudge against the guest? For example, if the guest ended up being someone who screwed the Host over in the past? You never know. I find it weird that a Host would retroactively reverse the comped room after the guest already left. A personal grudge for being screwed over by the guest in the past would be a viable motive. :/

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It varies by casino but usually when a host makes a comped reservation you will receive an email confirmation of the reservation from the casino showing the rate as comped.

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And when you check-in, the folio should say comped and at checkout, too. The mailer might have a disclaimer regarding offer/play. Not familiar with Fountainebeau routine on comps. If the host said, "I'll take care of you at the end", he might be screwed.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

Dan Druff what is your basis for calling the reversal of promised or implied comps "illegal" ? I'd call it unethical or perhaps a breach of an implied or actual contract, but not illegal.

As far as this actual situation, did the guy have a written (such as some kind of emailed or mailed offer) for the 3 night room comp, or a verbal promise from the host? Both enforceable but one easier to enforce than the other.

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Very simple.

I own the Druff Casino in Vegas, and I personally invite MDawg to stay for a comp reservation in a nice suite, because kewlJ says MDawg is a huge whale and a losing player.

MDawg then proceeds to stay 5 nights in the nice suite, but doesn't play at all.

MDawg then checks out of the room and pays $0.00.

I see this, get pissed off, and charge MDawg $50,000, claiming the nice suite is worth $10,000/night.

Do you think this would be legal?

Of course not. Because MDawg never entered into a contract to pay $10,000/night. I just decided on my own that the room was worth that, enticed MDawg to stay there for free, and changed the price after he left.

Totally illegal.

Now, if MDawg showed up to check in, and I said, "Hey I changed my mind. Wizard said you're a winning player, so if you want the suite, it'll be $10k/night", that would be legal, even if I previously sent a confirmation email saying the room was comped. That's because it would be my right to revoke a comp room at any time, but not after it's already been stayed in as comped!

BOTTOM LINE: You can revoke yet-to-be-redeemed comps, but you cannot retroactive uncomp a product/service already used.

With that said, it's correct that this will be difficult to prove to the credit card company unless the guy has documentation that it was offered as comped.

If he can produce that, he will likely win the dispute.

If he can't, he may or may not win, depending upon whether the casino responds, and what they say.

If the casino fails to respond, he will win by default.

But that's not the best way to handle it, as it will likely result in you being banned.

The correct way to handle it is to get to the front desk manager, calmly explain everything, and get them to fix it. If that fails, submit a Gaming complaint. If that fails, charge it back.

Dan Druff, you are definitely spot on with calling UNKewlJ the most prolific liar these forums have ever seen, but no one is going to slap the cuffs on that host ("illegal") it would be a civil matter, although I agree - depending on collection tactics it could rise to the level of criminal extortion.

Sounds like a form of fraud.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________________________

NRS 205.380  Obtaining money, property, rent or labor by false pretenses.

1.  A person who knowingly and designedly by any false pretense obtains from any other person any chose in action, money, goods, wares, chattels, effects or other valuable thing, including rent or the labor of another person not his or her employee, with the intent to cheat or defraud the other person, is a cheat, and, unless otherwise prescribed by law, shall be punished:

(a) If the value of the thing or labor fraudulently obtained was less than $1,200, for a misdemeanor, and must be sentenced to restore the property fraudulently obtained if it can be done, or tender payment for rent or labor.

(b) If the value of the thing or labor fraudulently obtained was $1,200 or more but less than $5,000, for a category D felony as provided in NRS 193.130.

(c) If the value of the thing or labor fraudulently obtained was $5,000 or more but less than $25,000, for a category C felony as provided in NRS 193.130.

(d) If the value of the thing or labor fraudulently obtained was $25,000 or more but less than $100,000, for a category B felony by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 10 years, and by a fine of not more than $10,000.

(e) If the value of the thing or labor fraudulently obtained was $100,000 or more, for a category B felony by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 20 years, and by a fine of not more than $15,000.

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obtaining rent by false pretenses

But no, I cannot see LVPD charging the casino; they'll probably say "It's a civil matter."

Just imagine what kind of penalties Fontainebleau could get for this.

Scott Sibella got a whole 12 months probation and a $9,500 fine for allowing money laundering at his casino.