The WoV Thread

[redietz]

In the same way that I was paid $2000. to show up,

MDawg is taken more serious than anyone on here currently.
He is taken so seriously that DarkOz gave him 2,000 dollars.
That wasn't good enough so he tipped the Wizard 500 dollars.
I'd say that MDawg is taken very seriously to some members.
DarkOz for starters.

Wizard was paid a couple million for his website.

So, in the words of Bruno Bischofberger talking about the value of Jean Michel Basquiat's art..."It's not a matter of how much you work on something that matters, it's how much you can get for it." My family has a Basquiat original they got in the 80s and it looks like he slapped it together in about eight hours. But how much is it worth today?

I have Andy Warhols that aren't even one of a kind, that are worth a quarter mill each, easy. The time Andy spent on each one was signing and numbering in pencil.

Once you are established, people pay you for your time. You know that, REDietz as well as anyone.


But in general, I would agree, most of the WOV forum members are couch potatoes commenting on the real actions of others.

The difference in gambling, MDawg, as opposed to life in general, is that gambling success is "established" via verifiable numbers. If you're just wanking out fairy tales with no third party verification, it's just wanking.

That's the issue I have with the kewlJ fairy tales, which is what they are until verified somehow by someone. If you have established Hall of Fame blackjack players, who know each other, and who get together IN PERSON and IN REAL SPACE and share info, that's an entirely different thing than blathering anonymously online. A lot of kewlJ's excuses for non-verifiability don't really hold water. In any other endeavor, whether gambling or not, people know each other and vouch for each other after real-life interactions. Blackjack, poker, video poker play, slot play, sports gambling, you name it -- there are verifiable sub-cultures who know each other.

KewlJ tries to sell this Winter Soldier/Three Days of the Condor stuff. He makes the case that AP's are all like James Fucking Bond. Everybody knows what they're doing (for decades), but nobody knows who they are. To quote Dalton from the first fight scene of Roadhouse, "Yeah, sure."

[kewlJ]

That's the issue I have with the kewlJ fairy tales, which is what they are until verified somehow by someone. If you have established Hall of Fame blackjack players, who know each other, and who get together IN PERSON and IN REAL SPACE and share info, that's an entirely different thing than blathering anonymously online. A lot of kewlJ's excuses for non-verifiability don't really hold water. In any other endeavor, whether gambling or not, people know each other and vouch for each other after real-life interactions. Blackjack, poker, video poker play, slot play, sports gambling, you name it -- there are verifiable sub-cultures who know each other.

KewlJ tries to sell this Winter Soldier/Three Days of the Condor stuff. He makes the case that AP's are all like James Fucking Bond. Everybody knows what they're doing (for decades), but nobody knows who they are. To quote Dalton from the first fight scene of Roadhouse, "Yeah, sure."

This is a guy that simply has no clue what he is talking about. Stick to sports betting, Red.

You know when most of those blackjack Hall of Famers get together and shmooze? When they are in their 60's and 70's and their career is over or winding down. In the prime of their career, most solo type players do everything they can to maintain anonymity. And for good reason. You never know who "flips" to the other side, working for or consulting with casinos. Could be a guy you hung out with and shared some information about yourself with. There is a long history of players working both sides in this town.

Now, yes, there does seem to be a group of Las Vegas AP's, mostly doing other plays besides and beyond card counting that seem to like to get together and drink and socialize. That is up to them. It really isn't beneficial to do so. And there are examples right here on this forum of why it is not good to do that. These guys have described each other, mostly in fun, height, hair color, appearance, what they drink, ect.

Maybe for non card counters, meaning APs doing other activities, this isn't as dangerous as it is for a card counter/table game AP. We have an extra level of casino personel involvement, the pit folks, that machine players don't have. But for me, a card counter, it is just not a good idea. And I am sorry Redeitz, but anyone that doesn't know that, really doesn't understand what card counting advantage play is about.

[redietz]

I'm re-thinking a line I wrote above. Take a poll, folks. Should it be, according to kewlJ's blackjack mythos:

A) Everybody knows what they're doing, but nobody knows who they are or:

B) Everybody knows who they are, but nobody knows what they're doing.


As far as sports gambling goes, there are no Winter Soldiers or Condors or James Bonds. If you do what you're doing for much more than a couple of years, you're going to be known. There's no evading that. So the question you've got to ask yourself, punk, is how long do you think radar-evading cliches would actually work in today's Las Vegas?

And before I gag myself with a spoon vis-a-vis another Stanford Wong reference, do you really think any of this is relevant TODAY? Dancer struggles, Munchkin is technically retired. Do you think Stanford Wong is doing any damage to anybody but himself in 2024?

But kewlJ coasts along. The story changes often, but the bullshit smells the same.


Note: For the record, this was written as an addendum before kewlJ's response above. So it's not some triggered response, not that it matters -- LOL.

[jdog]

I was made aware by a friend of a new entry in the databases.

I'll assume of course, that this will not be verifiable.

[kewlJ]

the question you've got to ask yourself, punk, is how long do you think radar-evading cliches would actually work in today's Las Vegas?

Well, I will let you know. Will be 15 years here in Vegas end of this year. And over half that for my brother.

Look it is not that hard. I do some things like spreading both ways and card counter's basic strategy, chip inventory, small buy-ins when you buy in, that I believe all contribute, but really there are 3 basic rules to longevity.

Don't rock the boat and create situations that pit folks are forced to take action, because most don't really want to. In many cases it is more work for them including paperwork.

Included in that is playing mid level limits that are well tolerated. Do you know why I have averaged 80k a year, from blackjack, and not much more? Because I certainly have the BR to play much higher limits and win more. But those limits are simply NOT tolerated for long.

Additionally and along the same line, playing higher limits and longer sessions, will result in more larger winning sessions. THIS is something pit folks have to answer for. So if you play modest limits for short sessions, that alone is most of the battle.

And the final thing is to have a large rotation of game. You just can't show up at the same 3-5 casinos with the best rules and conditions every day. You have got to play many games and locations even if that means playing some less desirable games and conditions.

These 3 things, along with playing anonymously it isn't as hard as you non-BJ players want to make it out to be.

[MDawg]

All the evidence, including his own conflicting contradictory fables, admissions of lies, investigations done by others and first hand witness encounters with UNKewl establish that he’s lying about being any kind casino player other than small stuff as cover for male prostitution.

[Rob.Singer]

That's what they call in the Shakespeare business protesting too much.

LOL

Oh, I agree...I'm no "peach" myself, but I'm not the one up for discussion and my points are indeed valid.

V, your rant does indeed signal that a very sensitive nerve has been hit, and your need to be involved screams "insecurity".

As an anonymous poster you also regularly display an odd need to try and convince everyone you are "well off", in need of no assistance, and what a great go-nowhere/do-nothing life you have--supposedly in retirement. At the same time, you radiate a ginormous envy of mdawg, and give a non-noble and very telling support of the biggest proven forum liar to ever come down the pike.

But have you ever done anything other than claim anything about yourself? I smell a phony. You know by hiding behind a fake name you can claim whatever you feel like claiming, something like kew, only I know the truth about THAT phony.

If you didn't show so much disdain over a big winner and hi-life liver like mdawg and someone successful in all aspects of life like myself, you wouldn't need to be making any claims about yourself at all. What purpose do they serve anyway?

[MisterV]

Interesting stuff there, KJ, but I have a question, and forgive me as I don't play blackjack.

How long does it typically take you, a card counter, to realize what the count is after you sit down?

Assume it's your typical many-deck game, and you sat down at the opening deal.

It must take awhile, and until you get an idea of the true count do you typically play conservative basic strategy?

How often do make an "intentional mistake" to try to throw them off, assuming they are monitoring your play?

[kewlJ]

Interesting stuff there, KJ, but I have a question, and forgive me as I don't play blackjack.

How long does it typically take you, a card counter, to realize what the count is after you sit down?

Assume it's your typical many-deck game, and you sat down at the opening deal.

It must take awhile, and until you get an idea of the true count do you typically play conservative basic strategy?

How often do make an "intentional mistake" to try to throw them off, assuming they are monitoring your play?

You are forgiven, MrV.

I mostly play off the top, which is sitting down at a freshly shuffled game. the exception is when I track a second table and jump to that game. But good conditions for that are less and less frequent. So playing off the top, one of three things will occur. The count will go immediately negative, immediately positive, or hover fairly neutral. When it goes immediately positive, well that is the situation you want. You are off and running, betting bigger and at an advantage. When the count goes immediately negative, I have an exit trigger, and exit that game pretty quickly. NOT playing through all the negative counts is one of the ways to be able to keep your spread modest. You don't have to play through all the -Ev hands. And a shoe where the count stays neutral, it is just that. You accept a little bit of -EV to get to the next shoe.

But you are correct that in a multi-deck game (6-8 decks), a lot of the movement occurs toward the end of the shoe, so you are forced to sit and playout the neutral shoe until that point (exiting early on the really bad shoes).

Second part of your question: I don't play basic strategy. I play card counters basic strategy. The difference is basic strategy is the optimal strategy for a completely neutral count (zero count). Card counters basic strategy is optimal play for a +count of your choosing (I use +3). At this point your larger bets are out and you want the optimal play. But you are willing to give up the optimal play at the neutral counts when smaller bets are out, in exchange for never playing the same hand different, which is a big card counter "tell". So while I am muddling through a neutral count, I am not playing basic strategy, but playing card counter basic strategy already preparing for the higher +EV counts. And understand that playing this way the cost of most incorrect plays at neutral counts is VERY minimal. It is a couple cents.

And card counter BS also eliminates the need for "intentional mistakes" as that is already built in because at least on some hands you are playing slightly wrong at the neutral counts.

Example Player 9 vs dealer 7. Basic strategy says to just hit. But at a positive +Ev count (more high cards remaining) the optimal play is to double down. If you do it that way, you will be seen playing the same hand, differently at different times, which is a "tell". With card counter's basic strategy, you always double down. So at a count of zero or +1, your double down is slightly wrong or not optimal at a very small cost, but at higher counts with larger bets it is optimal, AND you have always played the same hand the same way. So at zero or +1 count, that "intention mistake" is already built in.

This may seem like a very small thing but these add up. If a pit person that has any clue about card counting sees a player double 9 vs 7 on a neutral count and stand 16 vs 10 (most common hand) and stand on a 12 vs 2 or 3, when basic strategy says all these plays are hits rather than doubles and stand, then the pit person will immediately decide that player is not counting cards. That is the first impression and first impression goes a long way. Buys you a lot of time. By the time he is re-thinking that first impression, you should be gone from the table.

And the important part is that 1) you never vary the way you play the same hand and it IS optimal when you have the larger bets (at an advantage out). So it is all built in to that strategy.

[MDawg]

Or, just play red to green and worry only about being booted for becoming known as a male prostitute.

[Rob.Singer]

V, ask him more. He has a whole folder full of plagiarized bj material taken from the bj forums and his bj books. Just cut & paste.

Maybe you'll get another essay!

[MisterV]

Nah, he answered my question...which is more than the hound has done.

[smurgerburger]

Interesting stuff there, KJ, but I have a question, and forgive me as I don't play blackjack.

How long does it typically take you, a card counter, to realize what the count is after you sit down?

Assume it's your typical many-deck game, and you sat down at the opening deal.

It must take awhile, and until you get an idea of the true count do you typically play conservative basic strategy?

How often do make an "intentional mistake" to try to throw them off, assuming they are monitoring your play?

I didn't bother to read KJ's post but if his story were true he would be 100% known as a counter at all the casinos he plays at.

There is no amount of cover that will allow you to go unnoticed for the kinds of hours he's claiming to have accumulated.

If you're not familiar with that world you may not appreciate how easy it is to detect counters. It can easily happen within your first session.

[MisterV]

I would think that increasing the bet suddenly when the count was favorable would be a give away, but maybe it's similar to identifying when there is a trend?

You don't realize it happened til it's over, and if you cash out quick you might, just might, survive and live to count another day.

[smurgerburger]

I would think that increasing the bet suddenly when the count was favorable would be a give away, but maybe it's like a trend"

You don't realize it happened til it's over, and if you cash out quick you might, just might, survive and live to count another day.

15 years = a lot of "another days".

[MHF]

I'd like to say, "A sad ending to a life well lived," but, it came out, "A sad ending to a strange dude."

And, as always, it's the so-called professional gamblers who figure it out, dead last.

[Rob.Singer]

Interesting stuff there, KJ, but I have a question, and forgive me as I don't play blackjack.

How long does it typically take you, a card counter, to realize what the count is after you sit down?

Assume it's your typical many-deck game, and you sat down at the opening deal.

It must take awhile, and until you get an idea of the true count do you typically play conservative basic strategy?

How often do make an "intentional mistake" to try to throw them off, assuming they are monitoring your play?

I didn't bother to read KJ's post but if his story were true he would be 100% known as a counter at all the casinos he plays at.

There is no amount of cover that will allow you to go unnoticed for the kinds of hours he's claiming to have accumulated.

If you're not familiar with that world you may not appreciate how easy it is to detect counters. It can easily happen within your first session.

This is 200% true and is basically how everyone who's familiar with how casinos operate know why kew's tales are just plain fabricated nonsense.

While he can't comprehend most of this, his posts almost always reveal how he's incapable of counting with discipline at even the most basic level--let alone the imaginary claim of counting two tables. And even though his infatuation with the game has led to his neurotic focusing on the how and why of what true bj AP's do and with REAL money, his obvious cutting & pasting of their words only adds to his forums-wide tale of woe.

[mickeycrimm]

In the same way that I was paid $2000. to show up,

MDawg is taken more serious than anyone on here currently.
He is taken so seriously that DarkOz gave him 2,000 dollars.
That wasn't good enough so he tipped the Wizard 500 dollars.
I'd say that MDawg is taken very seriously to some members.
DarkOz for starters.

Wizard was paid a couple million for his website.

So, in the words of Bruno Bischofberger talking about the value of Jean Michel Basquiat's art..."It's not a matter of how much you work on something that matters, it's how much you can get for it." My family has a Basquiat original they got in the 80s and it looks like he slapped it together in about eight hours. But how much is it worth today?

I have Andy Warhols that aren't even one of a kind, that are worth a quarter mill each, easy. The time Andy spent on each one was signing and numbering in pencil.

Once you are established, people pay you for your time. You know that, REDietz as well as anyone.


But in general, I would agree, most of the WOV forum members are couch potatoes commenting on the real actions of others.

The difference in gambling, MDawg, as opposed to life in general, is that gambling success is "established" via verifiable numbers. If you're just wanking out fairy tales with no third party verification, it's just wanking.

That's the issue I have with the kewlJ fairy tales, which is what they are until verified somehow by someone. If you have established Hall of Fame blackjack players, who know each other, and who get together IN PERSON and IN REAL SPACE and share info, that's an entirely different thing than blathering anonymously online. A lot of kewlJ's excuses for non-verifiability don't really hold water. In any other endeavor, whether gambling or not, people know each other and vouch for each other after real-life interactions. Blackjack, poker, video poker play, slot play, sports gambling, you name it -- there are verifiable sub-cultures who know each other.

KewlJ tries to sell this Winter Soldier/Three Days of the Condor stuff. He makes the case that AP's are all like James Fucking Bond. Everybody knows what they're doing (for decades), but nobody knows who they are. To quote Dalton from the first fight scene of Roadhouse, "Yeah, sure."

Redietz, verifiability seems very important to you. So you should lead by example. You should be the one going first. Tell us the actual verifiable amount of money youve made gambling in the past 30 years. Or can your hummingbird ass back up your alligator mouth?

[MDawg]

If you wade through UNKewlJ's posts about "blackjack play" including the above it is painfully obvious that he's regurgitating "the way it should be" rather than relating anything much from personal experiences. In his hundreds and hundreds of thousands of posts there is almost no application of "the way things should be" to actual play.

Compare for example the two posts I made at WOV

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-...ot/#post933117

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-...ot/#post933125

in response to what happened to rapper Nelly who was arrested for an outstanding warrant in a casino, and found to be in possession of Ecstasy pills incident to that arrest. I wrote with

wit and conviction, the authority of a man long accustomed to knowing what he's talking about

as I applied my knowledge of the law to that specific situation, and also explicated the law with real world examples.

It's not just that UNKewlJ is a moron with no ability to connect the dots in analyzing anything (although, he is that too, a moron), and someone with all the personality of a wooden rocking chair (he's that as well, vapid and listless), but also that he can't expound on what he has not experienced personally. Which is why his posts tend to ramble on endlessly as he keeps throwing everything he has read or heard about the subject into the mix, repeating too his well worn blackjack story almost every time ("I've been playing ___ years and I've made ____ dollars and this is how much I SHOULD have made based on the math") desperately hoping to appear like some kind of authority (in this respect he isn't much different from Tasha with her "so and so did such and such" where she's writing about something she read or heard about).

(With UNKewl posts you may almost hear the rising soft whine of "I know what I'm talking about whyy won't you people pay attention to mee" in the background. But still - almost no relating of personal experience, tons of regurgitated "this is the way it should be.")

UNKewlJ can't post what he doesn't have. Which includes about everything he has ever talked about other than some red or green chips.

[redietz]

In the same way that I was paid $2000. to show up,



Wizard was paid a couple million for his website.

So, in the words of Bruno Bischofberger talking about the value of Jean Michel Basquiat's art..."It's not a matter of how much you work on something that matters, it's how much you can get for it." My family has a Basquiat original they got in the 80s and it looks like he slapped it together in about eight hours. But how much is it worth today?

I have Andy Warhols that aren't even one of a kind, that are worth a quarter mill each, easy. The time Andy spent on each one was signing and numbering in pencil.

Once you are established, people pay you for your time. You know that, REDietz as well as anyone.


But in general, I would agree, most of the WOV forum members are couch potatoes commenting on the real actions of others.

The difference in gambling, MDawg, as opposed to life in general, is that gambling success is "established" via verifiable numbers. If you're just wanking out fairy tales with no third party verification, it's just wanking.

That's the issue I have with the kewlJ fairy tales, which is what they are until verified somehow by someone. If you have established Hall of Fame blackjack players, who know each other, and who get together IN PERSON and IN REAL SPACE and share info, that's an entirely different thing than blathering anonymously online. A lot of kewlJ's excuses for non-verifiability don't really hold water. In any other endeavor, whether gambling or not, people know each other and vouch for each other after real-life interactions. Blackjack, poker, video poker play, slot play, sports gambling, you name it -- there are verifiable sub-cultures who know each other.

KewlJ tries to sell this Winter Soldier/Three Days of the Condor stuff. He makes the case that AP's are all like James Fucking Bond. Everybody knows what they're doing (for decades), but nobody knows who they are. To quote Dalton from the first fight scene of Roadhouse, "Yeah, sure."

Redietz, verifiability seems very important to you. So you should lead by example. You should be the one going first. Tell us the actual verifiable amount of money youve made gambling in the past 30 years. Or can your hummingbird ass back up your alligator mouth?

My ATS record has been verifiable for decades. What I do with that skill is up to me. I have both third-party documentation for literally 30 years+ AND clients who have dated/timed email records of what I've taken going back years and years.

It's funny how you, of all people, would respond like this. People take your UNVERIFIED but spot on slot analyses as "proof" that you win money. Maybe you don't. At all. Maybe you are one of those who spend a third of your winnings on booze, a third on hookers, and waste the rest. Or maybe you don't have gambling winnings at all. Maybe you blow any money won on alcohol-soaked steamers. The point is, you don't even have third-party verification of ANYTHING for any period of time.

And you want to criticize someone who has been monitored every day of every football season for 40 years? LOL. Yeah, these APs. Brag like bears; third-party document like hummingbirds.