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Thread: Guidelines for AP play on Buffalo Diamond slots

  1. #201
    I’ve seen a version where the denominations are .75/1.6/2.5/6.0 rather than .75/1.6/2.5/4.0.

  2. #202
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    I’ve seen a version where the denominations are .75/1.6/2.5/6.0 rather than .75/1.6/2.5/4.0.
    Thats the configuration at Soaring Eagle.
    All you "wokes" beware. The first to the revolution are the second to the guillotine.

  3. #203
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post
    The components that make up the total return on a spin banking game is 1) the return from the reels, 2) the return from the banked spins, and 3) the meter speed.

    1. The return from the reels (aka the main game) is calculated by subtracting the amount lost divided by the coin in from 1.
    Example: You took 100 $1 spins and lost $20. That's 1-(20/100) = .8 That's an 80% return to player.

    2. The return from the banked spins is calculated by dividing the value of the event by the frequency of the event.
    Example: For buffalo diamond let's say you trigger the wheel every 123 spins and it lands on the 2x 23.7% of the time. 123/.237 = 520 spins to hit the 2x. That's the frequency. If a 2x spin pays 3.6 bets per banked spin that means each banked spin is worth about 0.69% (3.6/520). To get the total banked you would multiply 0.69% by the total number banked.

    3. The meter speed is value you realize from the rise of the meters while you are playing the game. i.e. if you sit down and the 2x is at 50 and you expect to take 520 spins before it hits, it's unlikely that you will hit it at 50. You calculate the meter speed by taking the value of the event and dividing it by the frequency of the event that will increment the meter.
    Example: In Buffalo Diamond collecting a diamond in reel 5 increments the meter. Let's say that lands every 61 spins. 3.6 / 61 = 5.9%

    It's important to remember not to double count things. Example: In #1 you need to subtract out any bonuses you hit to get the coin in for the main game.

    If you decide to chase a 2x, you will realize the full value of the 2x meter speed. You will also realize some small portion of the value of the 3x and 4x meter speed.
    If you are going to chase a 3x, you will realize the full value of the 3x meter speed. You will also realize some portion of the value of the 2x and 4x meter speed. The 2x will be a large portion and the 4x will be a relatively small portion.
    If you decide to chase a 4x (God help you) you will realize the full value of the 4x meter speed. You will also realize some portion of the value of the 2x and 3x meter speed.The 2x will be a large portion and the 3x will be a relatively small portion.

    On the off chance your next question is going to be about handling meter speed value on combination plays where the value is spread across multiple meters you would compare the relative frequency of each event occurring and distribute the meter speed accordingly.
    Example. If the 2x hits every 520 spins and the 3x hits every 2080 spins you are going to hit 1 3x for every 4 2x... 5 events total. 1/5 = 20% of the 3x meter speed and 4/5 = 80% of the 2x meter speed.
    Thank you 🙏

  4. #204
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Iíve seen a version where the denominations are .75/1.6/2.5/6.0 rather than .75/1.6/2.5/4.0.
    Thats the configuration at Soaring Eagle.
    One of the casinos here has the 6.00 rather than 4.00. What would be the multiplier for each diamond and the percentage of the 6.0?

  5. #205
    Originally Posted by Littleray View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    I’ve seen a version where the denominations are .75/1.6/2.5/6.0 rather than .75/1.6/2.5/4.0.
    Thats the configuration at Soaring Eagle.
    One of the casinos here has the 6.00 rather than 4.00. What would be the multiplier for each diamond and the percentage of the 6.0?
    I have no stats for the 600 level. But it's a possibility that the numbers are the same as 400.
    All you "wokes" beware. The first to the revolution are the second to the guillotine.

  6. #206
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Littleray View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Thats the configuration at Soaring Eagle.
    One of the casinos here has the 6.00 rather than 4.00. What would be the multiplier for each diamond and the percentage of the 6.0?
    I have no stats for the 600 level. But it's a possibility that the numbers are the same as 400.
    I have been wondering about this since I read on here about the $6 version. My questions were is it still just a 4 times multiplier, just like the $4? So now instead of $1 extra being paid into the bonus compared to .75, it’s an extra $3. Where does it go?

    It’s seems like it would cost a hell of a lot of money to do the research on this, with a high probability of seldom if ever, finding playable numbers.
    Raise you hand if you actually believed KJ would quit WoV like he claimed. Bonus points for knowing how many times he has Quit the forums.

  7. #207
    $4 is 4x the base bet. $6 is 6x the base bet.

  8. #208
    I played $4 buffalo diamond at my local casino. I started at 11/39/53. It gave me green like about 6-8 times and then finally blue hits at 14/55/60. 3x 55 base games paid absit $350. I had invested $2800 in the play and cashed out with $1100. Huge loss.

    So here's my question : should I have played 14/15/60 and hope when blue hits again (hopefully sooner this time ) and give a better payout ?
    Although, 14/15/60 is not really a play 55 3X paid sub optimal. Is there some kinda frequency when the 3 sunset symbol occur during Free games - Iím curious ?

  9. #209
    Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
    I played $4 buffalo diamond at my local casino. I started at 11/39/53.
    Only question is why?

    Consider yourself lucky.

    The answer to your question is in this thread. Do the math.
    Raise you hand if you actually believed KJ would quit WoV like he claimed. Bonus points for knowing how many times he has Quit the forums.

  10. #210
    Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
    I played $4 buffalo diamond at my local casino. I started at 11/39/53. It gave me green like about 6-8 times and then finally blue hits at 14/55/60. 3x 55 base games paid absit $350. I had invested $2800 in the play and cashed out with $1100. Huge loss.

    So here's my question : should I have played 14/15/60 and hope when blue hits again (hopefully sooner this time ) and give a better payout ?
    Although, 14/15/60 is not really a play 55 3X paid sub optimal. Is there some kinda frequency when the 3 sunset symbol occur during Free games - I’m curious ?
    You were on an either/or play. Either the 3X or the 4X. It's a marginal play. About 99% plus about 5% meter movement. The average to catch either the 3X or the 4X is about 4 wheels so it looks like it took you about 2 cycles to hit it. With an average 61% drop along with some variance it can get expensive.

    Then you got stiffed on the free spins. 55 free spins is worth about $1100 average. Of course, that's with the big hits like the buffalos on each end with the multipliers in the middle averaged in. There's a lot of variance here too. Those buffalo hits don't come around all that often.

    So you took it in the shorts on this play. One of the problems with the $4 plays is they don't come around all that often. So if you take a tough beat it's a long time before you have a chance to get your money back.

    The 14/15/60 in only about 87%. Forget it.
    All you "wokes" beware. The first to the revolution are the second to the guillotine.

  11. #211
    Thanks Mickey and the Boz.
    I strongly believe that thereís a frequency of the 3 connected sunset symbols that are a rare occurrence during free games.
    Iím not so sure but I believe the frequency could be independent of 1x,2x,3X or 4x but more like it occurs once every zzz free games. I would love to hear thoughts / observations ?
    The reason I want to press on this is if there is a certain frequency, then it could be a game changer and can turn a potential loss into a win or prevent huge losses.
    On several occasions, I have seen ploppies playing and these connected symbols come when blue or green meter is at reset or near reset on $4 bet and itís a Handpay.

  12. #212
    Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
    Thanks Mickey and the Boz.
    I strongly believe that thereís a frequency of the 3 connected sunset symbols that are a rare occurrence during free games.
    Iím not so sure but I believe the frequency could be independent of 1x,2x,3X or 4x but more like it occurs once every zzz free games. I would love to hear thoughts / observations ?
    The reason I want to press on this is if there is a certain frequency, then it could be a game changer and can turn a potential loss into a win or prevent huge losses.
    On several occasions, I have seen ploppies playing and these connected symbols come when blue or green meter is at reset or near reset on $4 bet and itís a Handpay.
    There is definitely a frequency of occurrence for the sunsets. But it is still random. It's not like you could countdown to time the occurrence. Just like anything else you can run 10 cycles out.

    The most number of spins without hitting a wheel bonus on $4 that I know of is 1202 spins. How would you like to be that guy?

    So say the triple sunset frequency is 1 in 2500. You could get one on the first spin or not until the 25,000th spin. Knowing the frequencies of everything can let you know where the value lies. But it is worthless knowledge for exploitation when it comes to timing on a game like that.

  13. #213
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
    I played $4 buffalo diamond at my local casino. I started at 11/39/53. It gave me green like about 6-8 times and then finally blue hits at 14/55/60. 3x 55 base games paid absit $350. I had invested $2800 in the play and cashed out with $1100. Huge loss.

    So here's my question : should I have played 14/15/60 and hope when blue hits again (hopefully sooner this time ) and give a better payout ?
    Although, 14/15/60 is not really a play 55 3X paid sub optimal. Is there some kinda frequency when the 3 sunset symbol occur during Free games - Iím curious ?
    You were on an either/or play. Either the 3X or the 4X. It's a marginal play. About 99% plus about 5% meter movement. The average to catch either the 3X or the 4X is about 4 wheels so it looks like it took you about 2 cycles to hit it. With an average 61% drop along with some variance it can get expensive.

    Then you got stiffed on the free spins. 55 free spins is worth about $1100 average. Of course, that's with the big hits like the buffalos on each end with the multipliers in the middle averaged in. There's a lot of variance here too. Those buffalo hits don't come around all that often.

    So you took it in the shorts on this play. One of the problems with the $4 plays is they don't come around all that often. So if you take a tough beat it's a long time before you have a chance to get your money back.

    The 14/15/60 in only about 87%. Forget it.
    For once I semi disagree with Mick. While itís a marginal play, I still think the variance on this game only makes it a play for someone with a HUGE bankroll, willing and able to survive the ups and downs. And believes they will find enough similar situations over time to justify it.

    Yes the math is the math but playing numbers like this are still gambling. Granted less than the average slot, but still gambling.

    But I believe Mick was saying the same thing. And he, and Max are far more knowledgeable than me.

    And I do believe BD has been the demise of many a wannabe ďAPĒ.
    Raise you hand if you actually believed KJ would quit WoV like he claimed. Bonus points for knowing how many times he has Quit the forums.

  14. #214
    And I say this because we all can post pictures of 1000x winners on this game and we all had way under expectation bonuses like you did.

    My advise is find other opportunities, don’t overthink BD and only play it when it’s a big advantage. And know even in those cases, you can get raped.

    It comes with the territory.
    Raise you hand if you actually believed KJ would quit WoV like he claimed. Bonus points for knowing how many times he has Quit the forums.

  15. #215
    "if it ain't a must hit, then it's not a must hit". Not only does the wheel not have to hit after a certain number of base game spins, but the multiplied banked games don't have to hit after a certain number of wheels. What a fiendish (but profitable) game. I wonder how many foreclosures have been caused by chasing the 4x banked games ;-) ?

  16. #216
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
    I played $4 buffalo diamond at my local casino. I started at 11/39/53. It gave me green like about 6-8 times and then finally blue hits at 14/55/60. 3x 55 base games paid absit $350. I had invested $2800 in the play and cashed out with $1100. Huge loss.

    So here's my question : should I have played 14/15/60 and hope when blue hits again (hopefully sooner this time ) and give a better payout ?
    Although, 14/15/60 is not really a play 55 3X paid sub optimal. Is there some kinda frequency when the 3 sunset symbol occur during Free games - I’m curious ?
    You were on an either/or play. Either the 3X or the 4X. It's a marginal play. About 99% plus about 5% meter movement. The average to catch either the 3X or the 4X is about 4 wheels so it looks like it took you about 2 cycles to hit it. With an average 61% drop along with some variance it can get expensive.

    Then you got stiffed on the free spins. 55 free spins is worth about $1100 average. Of course, that's with the big hits like the buffalos on each end with the multipliers in the middle averaged in. There's a lot of variance here too. Those buffalo hits don't come around all that often.

    So you took it in the shorts on this play. One of the problems with the $4 plays is they don't come around all that often. So if you take a tough beat it's a long time before you have a chance to get your money back.

    The 14/15/60 in only about 87%. Forget it.
    I'm really close to your 99% number on $4 11, 39, 53 sans all meter movement but I'm coming up with a much higher meter speed than 5%.
    I'd think if you were playing that as an either / or you would get 87% of the 2x meter rise, 79% of the 3x meter rise, and 21% of the 4x meter rise on average... On the off chance the 4x hits first, it's pretty likely the 2x / 3x will still be a play...
    I'm thinking you omitted the 2x meter rise maybe and are just counting the 3x meter rise?

    Totally agree 14, 15, 60 is a dud.

  17. #217
    The game does a decent job at protecting it's self with variance.
    A lot of things can go wrong in with BD...

    - The main reels can pay bad.
    - The coins can go missing.
    - The wheels can land poorly.
    - The bonus game can pay bad.

    Of course all of those things can go the other way as well. 2 cycles to the bad is nothing with this game... Plan for 5-6 and you'll be in good shape most of the time.

    Chasing a $2.50 3x isn't even the same ball park as a OM machine you are going to spin 3 times are be done with even if the OM machine is the one in the high limit room. You can drop your cash requirement quite a bit by playing combos and not chasing stand alone blue and purples... $5,000 is enough if you do that but you can have some close calls and should have a backup cash plan for WHEN (not if) things turn really bad.

  18. #218
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
    I played $4 buffalo diamond at my local casino. I started at 11/39/53. It gave me green like about 6-8 times and then finally blue hits at 14/55/60. 3x 55 base games paid absit $350. I had invested $2800 in the play and cashed out with $1100. Huge loss.

    So here's my question : should I have played 14/15/60 and hope when blue hits again (hopefully sooner this time ) and give a better payout ?
    Although, 14/15/60 is not really a play 55 3X paid sub optimal. Is there some kinda frequency when the 3 sunset symbol occur during Free games - I’m curious ?
    You were on an either/or play. Either the 3X or the 4X. It's a marginal play. About 99% plus about 5% meter movement. The average to catch either the 3X or the 4X is about 4 wheels so it looks like it took you about 2 cycles to hit it. With an average 61% drop along with some variance it can get expensive.

    Then you got stiffed on the free spins. 55 free spins is worth about $1100 average. Of course, that's with the big hits like the buffalos on each end with the multipliers in the middle averaged in. There's a lot of variance here too. Those buffalo hits don't come around all that often.

    So you took it in the shorts on this play. One of the problems with the $4 plays is they don't come around all that often. So if you take a tough beat it's a long time before you have a chance to get your money back.

    The 14/15/60 in only about 87%. Forget it.
    I'm really close to your 99% number on $4 11, 39, 53 sans all meter movement but I'm coming up with a much higher meter speed than 5%.
    I'd think if you were playing that as an either / or you would get 87% of the 2x meter rise, 79% of the 3x meter rise, and 21% of the 4x meter rise on average... On the off chance the 4x hits first, it's pretty likely the 2x / 3x will still be a play...
    I'm thinking you omitted the 2x meter rise maybe and are just counting the 3x meter rise?

    Totally agree 14, 15, 60 is a dud.
    Yep, forgot to include the 2X meter.
    All you "wokes" beware. The first to the revolution are the second to the guillotine.

  19. #219
    Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
    Thanks Mickey and the Boz.
    I strongly believe that there’s a frequency of the 3 connected sunset symbols that are a rare occurrence during free games.
    I’m not so sure but I believe the frequency could be independent of 1x,2x,3X or 4x but more like it occurs once every zzz free games. I would love to hear thoughts / observations ?
    The reason I want to press on this is if there is a certain frequency, then it could be a game changer and can turn a potential loss into a win or prevent huge losses.
    On several occasions, I have seen ploppies playing and these connected symbols come when blue or green meter is at reset or near reset on $4 bet and it’s a Handpay.
    True story, different game but same idea:

    This weekend i actually saw 3 different ploppies hit Ainsworth $10k Majors in the $9100s. You wouldn’t want to start chasing those at $9100 because you saw this.

  20. #220
    Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
    Originally Posted by Prozema View Post
    The components that make up the total return on a spin banking game is 1) the return from the reels, 2) the return from the banked spins, and 3) the meter speed.

    1. The return from the reels (aka the main game) is calculated by subtracting the amount lost divided by the coin in from 1.
    Example: You took 100 $1 spins and lost $20. That's 1-(20/100) = .8 That's an 80% return to player.

    2. The return from the banked spins is calculated by dividing the value of the event by the frequency of the event.
    Example: For buffalo diamond let's say you trigger the wheel every 123 spins and it lands on the 2x 23.7% of the time. 123/.237 = 520 spins to hit the 2x. That's the frequency. If a 2x spin pays 3.6 bets per banked spin that means each banked spin is worth about 0.69% (3.6/520). To get the total banked you would multiply 0.69% by the total number banked.

    3. The meter speed is value you realize from the rise of the meters while you are playing the game. i.e. if you sit down and the 2x is at 50 and you expect to take 520 spins before it hits, it's unlikely that you will hit it at 50. You calculate the meter speed by taking the value of the event and dividing it by the frequency of the event that will increment the meter.
    Example: In Buffalo Diamond collecting a diamond in reel 5 increments the meter. Let's say that lands every 61 spins. 3.6 / 61 = 5.9%

    It's important to remember not to double count things. Example: In #1 you need to subtract out any bonuses you hit to get the coin in for the main game.

    If you decide to chase a 2x, you will realize the full value of the 2x meter speed. You will also realize some small portion of the value of the 3x and 4x meter speed.
    If you are going to chase a 3x, you will realize the full value of the 3x meter speed. You will also realize some portion of the value of the 2x and 4x meter speed. The 2x will be a large portion and the 4x will be a relatively small portion.
    If you decide to chase a 4x (God help you) you will realize the full value of the 4x meter speed. You will also realize some portion of the value of the 2x and 3x meter speed.The 2x will be a large portion and the 3x will be a relatively small portion.

    On the off chance your next question is going to be about handling meter speed value on combination plays where the value is spread across multiple meters you would compare the relative frequency of each event occurring and distribute the meter speed accordingly.
    Example. If the 2x hits every 520 spins and the 3x hits every 2080 spins you are going to hit 1 3x for every 4 2x... 5 events total. 1/5 = 20% of the 3x meter speed and 4/5 = 80% of the 2x meter speed.
    Thank you ��
    You're welcome. Good luck out there.
    Keep in mind, Buffalo is a fairly volatile game and you need a fairly significant data set before the model start stabilizing and the "go" number doesn't change every play. At that point the analysis starts to become useful. That happened for me at around 75,000 spins per bet level.

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