Stop implying that AndrewG is Alan Mendelson!

[Rob.Singer]

Why would surveillance spend 20 seconds to make sure someone that hit something big, did so legitimately? Simple answer: Because it is their job to do so.

Look, I sometimes forget that you are like 100 years old and played last century. I don't know exactly how things were back then with surveillance guys on the catwalks with binoculars. I suppose you might be able to pull something over on those guys. But in recent times in the real world, trying to "trick" surveillance is not a winning, nor longterm strategy.

Longevity is my top priority and I have done pretty well. I have done well by not trying to "trick" surveillance (1990's / 2000's ideology) but rather by playing within limits that are better tolerated and no one has to answer for. Now, it is true, I am talking blackjack, but it is not all that different. What your suggesting would get surveillance people fired.

You again ducked the issue. If you keep claiming upstairs looks at W2G winning hits, explain how and why Wynn--well known for their thoroughness--didn't bother when Kane and Nestor were winning hundreds of thousands the same day. Then explain Freemont, where they won daily for over a week. And explain what went on at the Silverton. If kew the expert claims surveillance watches and rewinds machine players who hit one jackpot, give us your insight at what went on upstairs at these casinos.

You may call a friend.

My answer: I don't know. I am not afraid to say that I don't have all the answers.

Rob, I don't have to prove that your claim is not true. And you don't have to prove that it is. That is what I have always said on this forum and that doesn't change because it is you. BUT, this is such an earth shattering claim and by a guy notorious for lying about everything and anything, that if you seriously expect people to believe you should be willing to offer some sort of proof. When you first came out with this claim and Axel was on the fence (or that is how I interpreted his position), I remember him clearly saying, that you ought to be able to offer some kind supporting evidence. He wasn't exactly sure what or how, but thought that there should be something to support your claim. That is not unreasonable, and yet you have never been able to do so.

Rob, you seem to be in your glory that Axelwolf somehow turned this discussion back to your double up bug claim. Gives you the relevance and attention you so desperately seek and need. But let me remind you of something. Even on THIS forum, with all the weird alliances and enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend goofiness going on....almost no one believes this claim. 4 percent! 9 percent if you want to count the leaning towards.

https://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sh...le-up-bug-poll

You "don't know"? Then why keep up the nonsensical position? Oh that's right---You're CNN (fake news) and I'm the conservative.

People vote on silly polls based on how much envy they have and their level of hate. And guess what? It doesn't change history for us over here, and I like that it just stews inside your head.

Now get some rest.

[mickeycrimm]

I was the one that remembered that Rob retired in 2009, the same time Kane & Nestor got busted. I know some of you want to chalk it up to mere coincidence. But it is way to much coincidence for me. I don't think it was accidental. It's one of my main pieces of evidence. There is no way it is just coincidence. That and Rob's knowledge of the play. Knowledge that no one else can match. Now, I know there is a lot of animosity at play and some people are incapable of looking at the thing objectively. I've even been called names and taken extreme slights because of my unbiased opinion.

I had initially thought that Rob retired because going back to the old routine of the progressive system would be way to boring after the double up bug. But now I'm thinking that Rob retired in 2009 because two people had gotten busted for doing the same thing he was doing. Subsequent to his retirement Rob started writing quite a bit about life away from the casinos. What was that all about? Remember, two people had just gotten busted for working the glitch. I think Rob decided to make himself scarce in the casinos. Out of sight out of mind, so to speak. So he publicly announced his retirement. Of course, we thought he was retiring from his progressive system.

Everyone knows that Rob and I carried on an internet feud for many years. But I didn't let that feud cloud my judgement on the issue. My unbiased opinion still remains that it is highly likely that Rob put this play down.

[mickeycrimm]

Nobody on these boards has the perspective of context, historical detail, and (whether he knows it or not) shared social networks that I have regarding "Rob Singer." "Singer" and I haunted Las Vegas in the 90's on roughly the same gambling and notoriety level. If you sit back and look at the details of his relationships in LV, it's pretty easy to figure things out. What seem to be big mysteries, the "Why didn't he do it this way?" or "Where did the money go?" or "Why is he living in an RV?" or "You mean nobody called him on it while in progress?" questions seem superficially baffling. They are actually what one would expect if you figured things out.

He pulled the classic Uri Geller on Alan Mendelson, which is the way these things always turn out.

It's a shame Mendelson pulled the "Singer" stories from the site, because it was crystal clear, whether "Singer" realized it or not, that "Singer" did not discover the double up bug. There are toes I don't want to step on here, so I'll let it go at that. Some of the older crowd can connect the dots and figure it out. There are reasons "Singer" would have executed this bug and now be broke. And yes, "discover" and "execute" are two different words.

It's crystal clear that Rob didn't discover the double up bug? Wow. You know that but haven't tried to claim the reward I posted, what, more than a year ago, for information that Rob didn't discover it. Damn, redietz. That would have been some easy money for you. The gambling world is a small world. Everybody seems to know everybody or know of everybody. This person that taught Rob the glitch. Who is he? How come he has remained silent? You must know him. Any chance you can get him to spill the beans?

Rob knows more about the double up bug than anyone on the internet. He knew that the published sequence of events were wrong. He publicly retirned as a professional gambler in 2009 when the double up bug got discovered by the casinos. If only this person that taught rob the glitch would come forward and collect the reward....

Redietz it looks like you've bought into the "Rob is broke" routine hook line & sinker. I think all the evidence points the other way. We all had a lot of fun pretending Rob was broke. It was a way to get back at him. But people that own RV's aren't the broke kind. No one has ever put up any evidence of Rob being on the skids.

Hey Mickey did Rob let you put away your shine box before he shoved his cock down your throat?

Mcap, you should try using your brain occasionally. That's that lumpy fat thing sitting on your shoulders.

[AndrewG]

Mr Mickeycrimm, I am not familiar with the term "retirement" as it applies to Mr Singer? What is meant by retiring? He is still playing video poker, isn't he? Didn't he recently show us a photo of some mega jackpot? If he is still playing and still getting these mega jackpots how is this retirement?

[AxelWolf]

You and Alan must suffer from the same dense disease Now I have to educate you again. Alan will read it because, well, he's just like you when it comes to forum cravings.

Typical scenario: Player goes in, sits down, doesn't insert his card, plays, hits a bumped up W2G winner, gets paid, puts card in, loses 5% of the session win on the highest denomination. Why? No, it's not because of what they see and don't see. Dumbest thing ever written. It's in case they ever look at my play at any time later. Better they see some play at the level I hit the big winner on than nothing at all. It's an added level of security within an overall highly safe procedure that inexperienced people would never think of.

To your next amateur point: explain why upstairs would bother looking carefully at a player who's hit no big winner until he does. And Wynn, Freemont, and Silverton all proved that they don't "rewind tapes" even when a player is winning hundreds of thousands on a single machine via a dozen taxable hits....or evenwhen they caught Kane at Silverton.

You need another 14 hour nap.

Why would surveillance spend 20 seconds to make sure someone that hit something big, did so legitimately? Simple answer: Because it is their job to do so.

Look, I sometimes forget that you are like 100 years old and played last century. I don't know exactly how things were back then with surveillance guys on the catwalks with binoculars. I suppose you might be able to pull something over on those guys. But in recent times in the real world, trying to "trick" surveillance is not a winning, nor longterm strategy.

Longevity is my top priority and I have done pretty well. I have done well by not trying to "trick" surveillance (1990's / 2000's ideology) but rather by playing within limits that are better tolerated and no one has to answer for. Now, it is true, I am talking blackjack, but it is not all that different. What your suggesting would get surveillance people fired.

You again ducked the issue. If you keep claiming upstairs looks at W2G winning hits, explain how and why Wynn--well known for their thoroughness--didn't bother when Kane and Nestor were winning hundreds of thousands the same day. Then explain Freemont, where they won daily for over a week. And explain what went on at the Silverton. If kew the expert claims surveillance watches and rewinds machine players who hit one jackpot, give us your insight at what went on upstairs at these casinos.

You may call a friend.

It's obviously they don't always verify jackpots through surveillance. Hell, it might even be rare, I think we'll have to ask a surveillance guy about that, I know there's some around. It would be a good question but I think it's going to be different at different locations and it's always going to matter how large the jackpot is as well. They're almost always going to get surveillance on Megabucks. Whatever the case even if there was a one in 50 chance surveillance would verify a jackpot I wouldn't want to risk the play by taking jackpots when you could basically go under the radar for a very very long time making many thousands per day.

Of course one may not understand the situation is that the time for all one knows a simple auditing of the machines could cause IGT to look into the situation figure it out in the blink of an eye. Or some other people might know about the same glitch and be using it at the same time you are and I'm more obvious manner. There might be a sense of urgency get as much money as fast as possible. Personally I but still avoid jackpots it would just be a matter of how much money I wanted to run around and make each day before I thought it would end.

[Rob.Singer]

I understand. It all starts with being a visitor vs. being local. After that views differ. But remember, you're looking back at it with a lot of knowledge of the machines and the history. I was doing this in real time, not knowing anything outside of how to work it. I didn't know which machines worked, why or why not. Many didn't, so I kept track of the one to play at each casino around the state.

The Silverton HL slots area is oddly enuf where I was 1st told about what went on with Kane. I went in to play and they wouldn't turn on double up. I gasped. In our chat the guy even showed me the IGT "URGENT memo" about turning it off on certain machines and the new eproms would be on their way ASAP.

I'll never understand how that upstairs guy who caught Kane using the same jackpot twice, wasn't also able to rewinnd & review. THAT would have EASILY shown what steps Kane used, and the Wired reporter should have asked that question. Kane caught their eye because he hit an unusual number of jackpots, is what they said. But that's dicey info also. If here were really playing $10 5-play instead of the actual $1 game, HE WOULD HAVE OBVIOUSLY HAD THOSE SAME HITS ANYWAY--except for the final one which he cheated on in order to get paid for again.

The Wynn part of the story is even more confusing. Using four 9's on the same machine many times over? Winning hundreds of thousands w/o piquing the interest of surveillance after a dozen hits? At that place??

[mickeycrimm]

Mr Mickeycrimm, I am not familiar with the term "retirement" as it applies to Mr Singer? What is meant by retiring? He is still playing video poker, isn't he? Didn't he recently show us a photo of some mega jackpot? If he is still playing and still getting these mega jackpots how is this retirement?

As I understand it he retired from filing Schedule C on federal income tax. So he "retired" from professional gambler and went back to amateur status. Before that he was in the casinos about once a week. After that he was a sporadic player going months at a time without playing. And he said he even slowed down on that because not filing schedule c was costing him money in taxes.

[Rob.Singer]

Mr Mickeycrimm, I am not familiar with the term "retirement" as it applies to Mr Singer? What is meant by retiring? He is still playing video poker, isn't he? Didn't he recently show us a photo of some mega jackpot? If he is still playing and still getting these mega jackpots how is this retirement?

As I understand it he retired from filing Schedule C on federal income tax. So he "retired" from professional gambler and went back to amateur status. Before that he was in the casinos about once a week. After that he was a sporadic player going months at a time without playing. And he said he even slowed down on that because not filing schedule c was costing him money in taxes.

mickey, Alan's gonna dog people with questions about me for a while just to try and give the perception of him being someone else.

You're answer here was correct.

[tableplay]

The Slot attendant lady told me . . .

Actually another huge +EV play at this place was having a slot attendant job inside a supermakert. This has to be the easiest fucking job on the planet. I'm not sure I have ever seen anyone under the age of 70 hold this sort of job.

[mickeycrimm]

The Slot attendant lady told me . . .

Actually another huge +EV play at this place was having a slot attendant job inside a supermakert. This has to be the easiest fucking job on the planet. I'm not sure I have ever seen anyone under the age of 70 hold this sort of job.

With the right machines in a place like that an attendent could make good money just keying certain games on and off the machines. Draw Till U Win comes to mind. That was actually being done at a truck stop in Wells, Nevada about 15 years ago. The attendent and a gambler had something going on that we couldn't get in on. The attendent would key the game off when the gambler was through playing for the day.

[tableplay]

The Slot attendant lady told me . . .

Actually another huge +EV play at this place was having a slot attendant job inside a supermakert. This has to be the easiest fucking job on the planet. I'm not sure I have ever seen anyone under the age of 70 hold this sort of job.

With the right machines in a place like that an attendent could make good money just keying certain games on and off the machines. Draw Till U Win comes to mind. That was actually being done at a truck stop in Wells, Nevada about 15 years ago. The attendent and a gambler had something going on that we couldn't get in on. The attendent would key the game off when the gambler was through playing for the day.

That's for sure. I remember Slotworld (near Gold Dust West) in Carson had a miniature satellite branch (Slotworld Cabaret Casino) on North Carson St. (actually the cross street Winnie at Carson). As late as 2016 this place was full of old Bally Gamemakers and double-up model Game Kings. It was almost always attended by one person, and it was almost always dead in there. Man the damage that could have been done or perhaps that was done by a colluding attendant and player.

[Bob21]

Actually another huge +EV play at this place was having a slot attendant job inside a supermakert. This has to be the easiest fucking job on the planet. I'm not sure I have ever seen anyone under the age of 70 hold this sort of job.

With the right machines in a place like that an attendent could make good money just keying certain games on and off the machines. Draw Till U Win comes to mind. That was actually being done at a truck stop in Wells, Nevada about 15 years ago. The attendent and a gambler had something going on that we couldn't get in on. The attendent would key the game off when the gambler was through playing for the day.

That's for sure. I remember Slotworld (near Gold Dust West) in Carson had a miniature satellite branch (Slotworld Cabaret Casino) on North Carson St. (actually the cross street Winnie at Carson). As late as 2016 this place was full of old Bally Gamemakers and double-up model Game Kings. It was almost always attended by one person, and it was almost always dead in there. Man the damage that could have been done or perhaps that was done by a colluding attendant and player.

Tableplay the main reason I don’t think too much damage can be done for TOO LONG is because casinos and slot companies track results. If the results are too far away from what’s considered statistically normal, alarm bells will go off.

This is how they knew something was going on with Nester and Kane. They were hitting one or two casinos too hard, and alarm bells went off.

It all comes back to greed. Once someone has a good play they usually push it too far. This is also what brought down Phil Ivey with his edge sorting play.

Because most people aren’t disciplined enough, casinos probably don’t have too much to worry about. People’s greed will kill most big money advantage or cheating plays.

[acescracked_1210]

I'm late to the thread, but FWIW as a general rule I lean toward Singer's take on surveillance getting involved in handpays more than I do KJ's take.

I play A LOT of machines.

[kewlJ]

I'm late to the thread, but FWIW as a general rule I lean toward Singer's take on surveillance getting involved in handpays more than I do KJ's take.

I play A LOT of machines.

ok, let's get something straight here. KJ doesn't have a definitive position on this. While I have had conversations with 2 different surveillance people over the years, my inquiries were about things related to what I do, so that I could benefit. I never questioned anyone about whether or not they examine hand pays. My opinions are my own based on common sense.

But here's the thing:. doing so would take all of 15 seconds. If they are not they should be. It is going to take 15 seconds to back up and see if the person hit the handpay at the proper level or hit it at 25 cents and it magically turned into a higher level handpay. And again, just think if it comes to light later. What is their answer when a supervisor asks how they didn't see a player play a hand at 25 cent level and get a hand pay payout at a much higher denomination. That surveillance guy better have his resume in order.

[Rob.Singer]

I'm late to the thread, but FWIW as a general rule I lean toward Singer's take on surveillance getting involved in handpays more than I do KJ's take.

I play A LOT of machines.

ok, let's get something straight here. KJ doesn't have a definitive position on this. While I have had conversations with 2 different surveillance people over the years, my inquiries were about things related to what I do, so that I could benefit. I never questioned anyone about whether or not they examine hand pays. My opinions are my own based on common sense.

But here's the thing:. doing so would take all of 15 seconds. If they are not they should be. It is going to take 15 seconds to back up and see if the person hit the handpay at the proper level or hit it at 25 cents and it magically turned into a higher level handpay. And again, just think if it comes to light later. What is their answer when a supervisor asks how they didn't see a player play a hand at 25 cent level and get a hand pay payout at a much higher denomination. That surveillance guy better have his resume in order.

....We now know that "common sense" is highly overrated!

[smurgerburger]

I wrote a long response but then cancelled it because it seems pointless.

KewlJ I think there is something fundamentally wrong with your thinking about the total volume of handpays, the rarity of glitches, and the amount of free time surveillance people have if you think they are routinely examining handpay jackpots for glitches. It would be an insane waste of resources imo.

Casinos do give some level of scrutiny to the actual hand pay - i.e. the process of handing over the cash to the customer. My guess is that every casino has some threshold past which someone in surveillance is supposed to watch it.

Regardless that has nothing to do with 'rewinding the tape' (is there a better way to put this?) and looking for glitch exploits.

[Rob.Singer]

I wrote a long response but then cancelled it because it seems pointless.

KewlJ I think there is something fundamentally wrong with your thinking about the total volume of handpays, the rarity of glitches, and the amount of free time surveillance people have if you think they are routinely examining handpay jackpots for glitches. It would be an insane waste of resources imo.

Casinos do give some level of scrutiny to the actual hand pay - i.e. the process of handing over the cash to the customer. My guess is that every casino has some threshold past which someone in surveillance is supposed to watch it.

Regardless that has nothing to do with 'rewinding the tape' (is there a better way to put this?) and looking for glitch exploits.

You're inputting a bit of logic. Might be too much for kew to handle. Remember, he's only saying these foolish things because he hates whatever I say or do and he has never won a debate with me. He can't be THAT stupid...even for that generation. Now you're on his shit list.

[kewlJ]

You're inputting a bit of logic. Might be too much for kew to handle. Remember, he's only saying these foolish things because he hates whatever I say or do and he has never won a debate with me. He can't be THAT stupid...even for that generation. Now you're on his shit list.

Rob, I have never even been in a debate with you. Your struggle is an internal one and the debating you do is with yourself. I suspect nearly everyone on this forum recognizes this except for you.

[AndrewG]

What triggered pages and pages of writing started with a message that Mr Alan sent to Mr AxelWolf. Since this message was posted the discussion has undergone many twists and turns. You don't believe me and I don't believe you. I see now that this has been going on for a long time.

Alan Mendelson
"For many months now I have not communicated with Rob Singer because he deceived me. For years he presented himself as a unique video poker player with a system that anyone could follow at any budget level and using that system they would have substantial profits.

But about a year ago, during a breakfast meeting at Red Rock Casino Rob confessed to me that his big winnings didn't come from a system others could also use but from a defect or bug on certain video poker machines that the general public would not be able to access. He confessed that his system and the reports of big wins from his system were just a cover for his manipulation of video poker machines which may have been illegal.

I was duped and misled into reporting on wins that never happened; I was duped and misled to presenting a system using videos that in fact did not produce the results that were claimed.

Rob Singer has also misrepresented to you what went on preceding an extensive video shoot at Caesars Palace. This was our second video shoot and Rob wanted to observe and offer guidance on Bonus Poker. He told you on this forum that he watched me go through $500 after $500 playing double double bonus poker. He told you I was stressed with losing and losing. But in reality I played only a short time with a small start of only $300 and he sat beside me discussing the various hands and offering advice. Quite frankly I'm surprised Rob chose this event to post about on the forum because I also wrote about that session on this forum. It was a short session because then Rob and my son who was the cameraman went up to our room with me for the shoot.

If Rob Singer watched some player feverishly losing thousands of dollars it wasn't me.

Because I now know that Rob Singer misrepresented strategy a being the engine behind his success I have deleted his pages from the index of my website.

When he told me at that breakfast meeting that his winnings really came from manipulating machines I asked him for proof and he said he had no proof. I will let you decide what you want to believe.

Alan Mendelson"

[LMR]

Regardless that has nothing to do with 'rewinding the tape' (is there a better way to put this?) and looking for glitch exploits.

I always called it a "tape check".