Discussing Rob Singers Systems

[Rob.Singer]

I don't know of any exceptions to the three out of five rule. I think a profit is a profit and a loss is a loss and declining losses or increasing profits doesn't matter. Either you have a profit or a loss. But I would like to hear from a tax expert on this one.

Aside from arci looking more stuff up on the Internet about business profit, there are more vehicles than the 3 of 5 years and what redietz said but I'm not an expert and it's been 4 years so I cannot expand. I know you're stuck on a profit is a profit and a loss is a loss. That's the simple approach. We filed as married and included many items that affected the overall filings. But our tax liability was very low each year we filed this way.

[Alan Mendelson]

Aside from arci looking more stuff up on the Internet about business profit, there are more vehicles than the 3 of 5 years and what redietz said but I'm not an expert and it's been 4 years so I cannot expand. I know you're stuck on a profit is a profit and a loss is a loss. That's the simple approach. We filed as married and included many items that affected the overall filings. But our tax liability was very low each year we filed this way.

Now I have to ask this question:

I thought you said you offset your casino wins with your gambling business expenses? Are you saying that you also used other deductions to offset your Schedule C income?

Now, I happen to know for a fact that deductions on a Schedule C have more value than a deduction on Schedule A. Schedule C deductions are worth dollar for dollar, but deductions on Schedule A are not dollar for dollar.

So I am now confused even more about all of these tax issues. It's a very taxing subject.

[Rob.Singer]

I've said this many times over: where Rob lived has absolutely no bearing on anything to do with his video poker wins, losses, skills, strategy, system or anything. It's a non issue.

And if you want to say that his "address" determines his credibility then consider that according to public records I am homeless because I moved into my wife's home and my name does not appear on anything associated with her home. Technically, I am homeless. And since wives control the purse strings I am also technically broke.

No need to keep explaining the logic to him Alan. I didn't have a DL from Hawaii and my Az. DL had the apt. on it, so there are certain records that may only contain certain information. If he weren't so strapped then we'd be seeing him accepting the bet on it instead of making his same old excuses. Obviously, he's either found something, or he's too afraid to "double down" on his lies.

[Rob.Singer]

Now I have to ask this question:

I thought you said you offset your casino wins with your gambling business expenses? Are you saying that you also used other deductions to offset your Schedule C income?

Now, I happen to know for a fact that deductions on a Schedule C have more value than a deduction on Schedule A. Schedule C deductions are worth dollar for dollar, but deductions on Schedule A are not dollar for dollar.

So I am now confused even more about all of these tax issues. It's a very taxing subject.

Yes, schedule C deductions are dollar-for-dollar. I included other deductions that would normally have been on schedule A, on C. I'd have never known about this move without help. And like everything having to do with taxes, it is not all-inclusive and not all that clear. But it passed--and by that I mean the issue was never brought up.

[regnis]

I don't know of any exceptions to the three out of five rule. I think a profit is a profit and a loss is a loss and declining losses or increasing profits doesn't matter. Either you have a profit or a loss. But I would like to hear from a tax expert on this one.

There are essentially 8 or 9 factors to look at in determining if the activity is a hobby or a business. Profit is only 1 factor, and the 3 of 5 rule is not an actual rule but a layman's belief. Other relevant factors are (1) time and effort spent on the activity, (2) does he operate the activity as a business, and studied and trained and consukted with advisors and profwssionals, and does he maintain separate records and bank accounts etc, (3) does he intend to make a profit--early year losses are ok and economy based losses are ok, and if he has had profitable years, how much profit, (4) has he turned other businesses into profitable businesses in the past---track record, and how do his profits and losses compare from year to year--ie does he lose big and have tiny profits (hobby) or are the profits sizeable (business). I have lumped some of the various factors into a few of the above.

But don't set your mind to the 3 of 5 because it is a fallacy.

While I have stated in other threads that I am not an authority on gaming (although fairly knowledgeable), this is in my field of expertise.

[Count Room]

The more confusing the details that infect this forum, the more obscure the non-disclosure agreement(s) and the post office box for those tax returns become behind the thickening smoke...

[redietz]

What regnis said. If someone has shown they previously turned a losing situation into a profitable situation, and they are showing "momentum," then they can make a case for a business.

[quahaug]

Why would anyone want to say they had a gambling business? Don't people report only their 1099's which could easily be offset by total coin through. Gambling wins are only subject to income tax but sced-c income is subject to self employment tax. If a person played quarters they wouldn't even get a 1099 so even if they had a profit the tax question would be moot.

[regnis]

Qua-the law requires that all winnings be declared and taxed, not just the 1099's. While many people do just declare the "signers", they are actually committing a tax fraud. Until you go through a gambling audit you have no idea the damage that the IRS can do if you only declare the 1099's. They are shrewd enough to know that there are many other winners than just the signers, particularly in horse racing which again is my milieu.

As to the why---because as Rob has done (and I leave everyone to their own opinion as to whether it was proper)--he was able to offset a sizeable profit on Sch C rather than have the deduction phased out or limited on Sch A, and it broadens the deductions that are available to you.

[Rob.Singer]

Qua-the law requires that all winnings be declared and taxed, not just the 1099's. While many people do just declare the "signers", they are actually committing a tax fraud. Until you go through a gambling audit you have no idea the damage that the IRS can do if you only declare the 1099's. They are shrewd enough to know that there are many other winners than just the signers, particularly in horse racing which again is my milieu.

As to the why---because as Rob has done (and I leave everyone to their own opinion as to whether it was proper)--he was able to offset a sizeable profit on Sch C rather than have the deduction phased out or limited on Sch A, and it broadens the deductions that are available to you.

I'm glad you brought up the part of the law that states ALL gambling winnings are reportable. Stop in a casino and win five bucks, you must report it. And that is exactly how it is written in the IRS manual, and is why I have always reported everything--W2G or not. However, not every auditor comprehends this. In one of my audits, one of the auditors did, and when she couldn't nail me on that one she basically let the rest of the audit flow very easily. In the other audits, the auditors looked at me as if I were nuts "over-reporting" my wins and they actually lowered the income, thereby resulting in my receiving a check from them after it was over.

[Alan Mendelson]

I'm glad you brought up the part of the law that states ALL gambling winnings are reportable. Stop in a casino and win five bucks, you must report it. And that is exactly how it is written in the IRS manual, and is why I have always reported everything--W2G or not. However, not every auditor comprehends this. In one of my audits, one of the auditors did, and when she couldn't nail me on that one she basically let the rest of the audit flow very easily. In the other audits, the auditors looked at me as if I were nuts "over-reporting" my wins and they actually lowered the income, thereby resulting in my receiving a check from them after it was over.

Rob, I kinda doubt that the IRS auditors thought you were overstating your income when you reported non-W2G wins. I think the IRS auditors know their stuff.

[quahaug]

[QUOTE=regnis;14673]Qua-the law requires that all winnings be declared and taxed, not just the 1099's. While many people do just declare the "signers", they are actually committing a tax fraud. Until you go through a gambling audit you have no idea the damage that the IRS can do if you only declare the 1099's. They are shrewd enough to know that there are many other winners than just the signers, particularly in horse racing which again is my milieu.

What are you...nuts?

[Rob.Singer]

Rob, I kinda doubt that the IRS auditors thought you were overstating your income when you reported non-W2G wins. I think the IRS auditors know their stuff.

No, they do not know their stuff in Az. when it comes to filing as a professional gambler--at least thru my last audit. Maybe they become more knowledgeable as more casinos pop up everywhere. Plus, I said that the reason for my receiving a check after the audit was because they concluded that I did in fact overstate my income by including all wins outside of W2G wins. Yes they are otherwise very sharp, but what I filed was more an audit training session for them than anything else. I had all the answers because I was prepared.

[Rob.Singer]

[QUOTE=quahaug;14678]

Qua-the law requires that all winnings be declared and taxed, not just the 1099's. While many people do just declare the "signers", they are actually committing a tax fraud. Until you go through a gambling audit you have no idea the damage that the IRS can do if you only declare the 1099's. They are shrewd enough to know that there are many other winners than just the signers, particularly in horse racing which again is my milieu.

What are you...nuts?

Qua, the part I understand about here is that the IRS is notorious for "destroying" taxpayers who under-report their income--from any source. That is where they find most of the cheaters. If you have an audit and you get a knowledgeable auditor who knows a gambler obviously wins at times without getting tax forms, he will hammer you about it, and if you don't capitulate then he will make the audit a nightmare by reviewing every deduction and figure you wrote in your filing. You may not get an auditor who's on the ball with all the IRS regs, but I don't think it's worth the chance.

[Alan Mendelson]

No, they do not know their stuff in Az. when it comes to filing as a professional gambler--at least thru my last audit. Maybe they become more knowledgeable as more casinos pop up everywhere. Plus, I said that the reason for my receiving a check after the audit was because they concluded that I did in fact overstate my income by including all wins outside of W2G wins. Yes they are otherwise very sharp, but what I filed was more an audit training session for them than anything else. I had all the answers because I was prepared.

I will file this one away in "Rob Singer Claims that will remain in dispute." No Rob, this is basic tax info. And if you are going to come up with how you got away with things, come up with something more creative than IRS auditors don't know the basic rules which are clearly written right in the instruction booklets.

[Rob.Singer]

I will file this one away in "Rob Singer Claims that will remain in dispute." No Rob, this is basic tax info. And if you are going to come up with how you got away with things, come up with something more creative than IRS auditors don't know the basic rules which are clearly written right in the instruction booklets.

Alan, do you realize I'm simply recounting events as they occurred as well as exact wording that went into my audit reports? Probably not, but since you have no experience of being audited as a professional gambler in a state that was not known for having professional gamblers, you can either accept what I've said, or continue to let the truth in another thread make you feel as if you have to show your displeasure here. Certainly, nothing a true journalist would do. And here's a hint: no IRS agent knows the book inside out when they're talking to you in an audit. Haven't you learned anything about their competency level via the scandal they're involved in right now?

[Alan Mendelson]

Whatever you say Rob.

[Rob.Singer]

So let's get this thread back on track. It wasn't long ago that arci wanted us to have tax returns sent to Alan. Then, after I agreed and other than running away from a side bet regarding my past residence, he's all but disappeared (and these words will FORCE the poor guy to respond ASAP after, of course, claiming he merely was on a bowling marathon, playing 72 holes of golf, or enjoying continuous gourmet meals at KFC). I've asked for and received Alan's mailing address. Why am I sitting here with my d**k in my hand?

[Rob.Singer]

Whatever you say Rob.

Looks like you're running off for some casino action!

[arcimede$]

I've said this many times over: where Rob lived has absolutely no bearing on anything to do with his video poker wins, losses, skills, strategy, system or anything. It's a non issue.

If a person lies about the little things they certainly will lie about the big things. And as you can see, Singer can't come up with an address. That says nothing about me, and everything about him.

And if you want to say that his "address" determines his credibility then consider that according to public records I am homeless because I moved into my wife's home and my name does not appear on anything associated with her home. Technically, I am homeless. And since wives control the purse strings I am also technically broke.

I also looked up his wife. Her address history matched his up until they left the small apartment in 2011. So, that is a dead end street (pun intended).