Question for Rob Singer and redietz about "Total Rewards"

[Alan Mendelson]

Would either of you still object to pursuing Total Rewards benefits including comps and free play if you happened to also have a profit while playing at TR casinos?

I am not sure about redietz, but Rob seems to be under the impression that if you are a TR member and have 7 Stars status that you must lose. But what if you win and have a profit and also take advantage of the comps and free play and other bonuses?

Is there a problem enjoying that icing on the cake?

(Hint: I had a session last night where I had $780 of free play and came home with $5,000 cash. That puts me way ahead for 2014 and with about 28,000 tier points which puts me more than 1/6 of the way towards 7 Stars again.)

[Rob.Singer]

No, I don't have a problem with the TR program as long as you win or are close to winning each year. My statements criticizing those who pursue top tier statuses in any slot club are focused on those who think accumulating points, offers, and freebies are the end all when playing. And it is true that the vast majority of these people do. Why do you think Jean Scott wrote that book about comps? She never could say she won UNLESS she was able to self-value all that junk (including the toiler seat cover) she got "for free". Then PRESTO--she's a winner every single year. But use your head: would CET be in business and send out many thousands in offers, flights, cruises, dinners, free play and free stuff to all of their 7-Stars and Diamond players if even 1% of them were winners?

Alan I am now a Diamond at CET even though I couldn't care less about that. I played once up here at Harvey's where I got the $20k royal, then I must have piled up the points down in Tunica when I ravaged them even more. The offers (which include startling amounts of free play outside Nevada, and free airfare for two to the casinos in the south) are starting to roll in from the 3 casinos around here and everywhere from Mississippi to New Orleans. I even got one from AC. So the notion that winners are blocked from getting or have their offers reduced, as you probably know for yourself by winning at CET in 2013 and now, is untrue.

[Alan Mendelson]

My statements criticizing those who pursue top tier statuses in any slot club are focused on those who think accumulating points, offers, and freebies are the end all when playing. And it is true that the vast majority of these people do.

Is it possible Rob that you are reading too much in between the lines? I don't think rational people really value show tickets, gifts, trips more than the actual cash they win or lose. Perhaps people talk about the freebies they get but that's human nature. The reality is -- I am sure -- that no one considers a tee-shirt or a casino jacket more than money in the bank.

Regarding the offers from Caesars: I am pretty sure you are valued based on your "dollar volume" of play. If you are now seeing great offers then you are really pumping a lot of money through the machines. My offers were cut about a year ago because I don't pump big dollars through the casino. Perhaps you are playing more than you realized, and more than you tell us?

[Count Room]

Perhaps you are playing more than you realized, and more than you tell us?

Will this be the moment Rob breaks down in tears and confesses all? Let me go pick up a couple of Powerball tickets, be right back...

[Rob.Singer]

I played just as I said--at Harvey's once and very heavy in Tunica once. I guarantee if you go to Paris or the Rio or PH and run significant cash thru the $10 & $25 machines, your offers will soar, win or lose.

Those who create cash value out of gifts do so only so they can make themselves believe they had a winning year when they didn't. So tell me, do you believe CET loses money with their 7-Stars players, and if so, are they just giving it away out of the kindness of their heart?

[Dan Druff]

There is no such thing as "creating value" out of gifts. You need to be honest with yourself. With each gift/freebie, you need to say to yourself what it's really worth TO YOU -- that is, how much you would pay for the same thing in real money (NOT how much it would have costed, as that's irrelevant).

For example, when I get Shell gas cards from CET (either Great Gift Wrap Up or other promos), they are worth close to face value to me, but not 100%. I always need to buy gas, so these honestly save me real $ I would have spent, but they are a bit inconvenient in that I have to use them at Shell, which either might be more expensive or farther away than I'd prefer to go. I'd say I would personally value Shell cards at 95% of the face value.

Freeplay I value at around 99% of the face value, since that's the average takeaway on an 8/5 bonus machine. Unlike Alan, I am not results-oriented per session of freeplay. It will roughly average out in the long run.

Other things are harder to value. Free hotel rooms are worth something, but sometimes I use them just because they're a benefit, but I otherwise wouldn't have traveled without them. So I don't know what they're worth. They are worth something to me during the World Series of Poker. I basically spent a month at the Rio for free during the 2013 WSOP.

Free food I value at the non-inflated prices, and only if I enjoy it. So if I eat a $70 steak at Old Homestead at Caesar's, I know that it's really worth more like $45.

In 2013 I combined my Seven Stars annual trip to New Orleans with a cruise out of the same location, and I did it during the Christmas/New Years high season. The "value" of the cruise was about $3000 and the flight was $1200, but I wouldn't have spent $3000 on a cruise at that time of year if I was spending my own money (prices were inflated due to the season). I also got $500 in RCs for taking the trip (you get that instead of that obnoxious food credit at Harrah's New Orleans, which is great).

Anyway, I do enjoy the Seven Stars perks and the offers, but I never put unrealistic values on them.

[Dan Druff]

Also, I get 30% rakeback at WSOP.com because of being Seven Stars. This already earned me $400 in a relatively short time of play.

[redietz]

I don't know why the other thread was locked, but I just wanted to respond to Alan's question. Let me refer to CET as Harrah's, which is what it basically is, so as to avoid conflating my experiences with CP, which was a decent gambling locale for a long time, with other Harrah's properties.

The only problem I have with TR is that it's a component of the Harrah's formula, which in essence lowers the floor for gambling odds on a number of games -- video poker and blackjack included -- and Harrah's also instituted bizarre rules for betting limits on race and sports based on TR ranking. In other words, in Las Vegas, they want you to have established that you're a high-volume moron. People who bet more on lousy-odds casino games are often blessed with more liberal limits for sports betting, for example. Several years back, I went book to book to interview sports managers and workers. In essence, Harrah's wants you to display stupidity in other forms of gambling before upping your limits for sports. These kinds of tweaks are unique to Harrah's in the history of Las Vegas sports betting. I could go on -- but let's skip sports for a moment. Why would people bet lousier odds games? Well, the whole merit badge system provides a rationale. Are people really that dumb, you might ask? I don't know -- you tell me. Is 6/5 blackjack spreading? Are video poker percentages decreasing? Is it solely, or even primarily, the merit badges that draw people into playing lousy games? I don't know, but they serve as a component of the Harrah's system. The Harrah's system is bad for blackjack players, sports players, race players, and video poker players as compared to other companies. It doesn't really affect craps players. It hasn't been good for poker players. I suspect, although I do not know for a fact, that it's bad for slot players. Those are a lot of reasons to dislike a system.

[Rob.Singer]

In the locked thread, Dan talks about his method of valuing his stuff from Harrahs. That's fine, but it's ONLY fine if he wins directly from the machines. All that slot club fluff is just that--fluff. If they are truly rewards, then they should never cost anyone a penny.

[Dan Druff]

I don't know how the thread got locked. I unlocked it and merged the new one into this.

[Alan Mendelson]

Redietz I don't know about sports betting but I don't think the gaming at Caesars is much different from any other casinos. The Caesars properties have their good and bad games just like every other casino. But when it comes to comps do you know of a more generous outfit? I don't.

[Rob.Singer]

Harrahs can be more generous because they have the most addictive slot club program in the business. Hands down.

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob is "better" automatically "addictive" in your mind?

[Rob.Singer]

Alan, you do need to be looking at it as "better" seeing that you are 110% locked in to whatever they're doing. I don't. My perspective is more from the outside looking in. From here I see a program that is in fact "better" overall simply because they have the largest network of properties in the US and Canada (sorry Deuce ) and for people who actually take advantage of all the cruises and free flights to their many locations, it's a better program in that respect. But you don't, and for the life of me I can't understand why. Why not take your wife on a vacation somewhere else besides Rincon or Caesars? Why not go on a cruise together each year? Why not go somewhere and NOT GAMBLE for a few days? (I know why, but you get mad whenever I say it).

TR is unique in this way, but the way you use it it's really them using you. You think all that local stuff they bestow upon you and all that Caesar's "magic" that comes your way is the end-all. But it hardly is. Have you ever put the money that you put thru the machines at CET, thru the machines at MGM properties, the Venetian, Bellagio, the Hard Rock, Peppermill, Atlantis, Aquarius, etc. etc.? Each of those have a MUCH BETTER rewards program than CET, if you short-play the CET offers as you do. In order to truly get the value out of a club, you have to maximize use. You minimize use, and at the same time they're maximizing their use of you. You're what they call a weak player because of this. Therefore, you should not be playing at CET casinos.

[Alan Mendelson]

I don't go on cruises because I get seasick. Some of the casinos you mentioned Rob I have had trouble at because of my "advantage craps play" while others I have done work for and it would be inappropriate for me to play there. Regarding my personal life WTF do you know? Sometimes you are a real piece of work sitting there in your RV park passing judgment on the rest of the world.

[redietz]

For race and sports, Harrah's comps are not good bordering on real bad and, frankly, depending on the property, I have run into real inconsistencies. LVH is much better. Palms, when it blended its sports book before the British takeover, was much better. Boyd and South Point are much better for race; I have not bet much in the sports clubs at these properties so I can't comment on sports. For race, almost anyplace is better.

Old stories:

1) Harrah's swears up and down, via the Caesars' sports book personnel, including the manager, on multiple occasions, that sports comps will be fine after the Harrah's takeover. I don't really trust them, so I use most of my already-banked comps. In fact, Harrah's line is that our comps will be worth more. Turns out -- liar, liar, pants on fire. Sports comps, already in the system, are docked 60% upon the takeover.

2) Quick story -- I walk into Harrah's sports book to make a couple of bets. I am the only person in there -- it's not lunch time yet. Literally the only person. I make a couple of bets -- one was for $4500; the other was some prop for a couple hundred. I request a comp for a hamburger -- at the time, they had waitresses walking around taking orders from a snack place. I am told I need to bet 5K for a hamburger. I look around, point out that I am the only customer and they are begrudging me a hamburger?!? They refuse my hamburger. I tell them I made an error on my ticket and, since I am still standing at the window, I want my money back. They have to comply -- I get my money and head to the Rio, which had the same lines, and get a comped buffet. The Rio had just been taken over by Harrah's, but their policies and personnel were not yet in place.

Anyway, the point is, this is how Harrah's treats sports bettors. CP became the flagship for Harrah's sports because they were a big-time, legitimate professional sports book before Harrah's. The culture clash has been interesting.

Also, I'm sure Dan can chime in, but I have to think comps for live poker players are better elsewhere. I haven't kept current on that, so please let me know.

[a2a3dseddie]

When all is said and done, a casino is a business. They don't owe us anything and certainly not a way to make a living.

The offers and comps (offered by CET or any other casino) only exist because the casino feels and hopes to bring you in and lose more than they are offering...we all get that (or should get that).

Sure it sucks when casino offers are decreased, but I don't think that's any different than what credit card companies or other retailers do. The amount of points earned from credit card use to book flights always increases year to year. In Canada we have the Air Miles Program, and the amount of Air Miles needed to purchase gift items or flights has always trended upward. That's how all loyalty programs work.

Casinos are in a class by themselves when it comes to business. When you spend $4500 on an all inclusive vacation for 2 to Mexico, you are getting your flight, hotel, entertainment, food and alcohol included. Those things may be worth $4500 to you, but to the tour operator and resort, that trip is NOT worth $4500. Their profit margin is built into that retail price.

When you place a $4500 sports bet (or any kind of bet) at a casino, you are trying to walk out with $4500 of the casino's cash which is... you know...really worth $4500.

I used to place sports bets through a bookie. Never had a problem paying him or collecting from him. I received nothing in return for my "action". At least in a Las Vegas casino you can get free drinks and a nice environment to watch the games in the sports books.

[Alan Mendelson]

Redietz, interesting story about the difference in what you got at the Rio and at Harrah's for your $4500 bet. But I need to ask you if the difference was because of policy or because comps are more liberal at Rio? Frankly, they are two different casinos though both owned by the same company, and it wouldn't surprise me that you would get more comps at Rio which is an off Strip property vs Harrah's which is center Strip.

Regarding poker comps: at Caesars it's $1 per hour played in live games, and I don't recall any comps for the daily tournaments. You'd have to play live poker for 8 hours to get a slice of pizza in the food court.

Since I am not familiar with sports betting, redietz, what does the casino make (its profit) on your $4500 bet? Is there a fee or commission, or how does the casino get paid? In the poker room the comps are so little because the casino gets paid by the rake (a couple of bucks each hand taken out of the blinds) which covers the overhead of the dealer, the room, cards and even free booze.

I think one of the most generous poker casinos for comps is The Bicycle in LA where players at $80 buy-in games and higher get unlimited free food and soft drinks. Alcohol you pay for. At the Bike I've had full breakfasts with omlettes made to order and at dinner shrimp cocktails and steak. The rake and blinds aren't any higher than any other casino in town, but the reality is that the casino still makes a lot of money. Oh, there is also cash back for players. Rincon also has a program where poker players get cash for something like 32 hours of play a month.

[Rob.Singer]

I don't go on cruises because I get seasick. Some of the casinos you mentioned Rob I have had trouble at because of my "advantage craps play" while others I have done work for and it would be inappropriate for me to play there. Regarding my personal life WTF do you know? Sometimes you are a real piece of work sitting there in your RV park passing judgment on the rest of the world.

Excuse after excuse. That's what I know. I also know you're overly addicted to the TR program and there's nothing you can do about it. And it simply makes no sense that you hardly use the offers that might actually have a fun factor involved for you and your significant other. Do you get air sick too? I'd much rather read a trip report from you on a family visit to New Orleans or Ontario Canada, instead of the usual loner visits on the hook end of a CET extravaganza to play aces and faces. Think about it.

[Vegas_lover]

I'd much rather read a trip report from you on a family visit to New Orleans or Ontario Canada, instead of the usual loner visits on the hook end of a CET extravaganza to play aces and faces. Think about it.

But then again, Bubba hangs out on gambling forums (until he gets thrown off) all the time. Even here he still is and will remain the number 2 poster. Who are you kidding Bubba? You've got addiction written all over you. You gamble the most, you talk about it the most, you have the most extreme claims, etc. Lalalalalalala

All the best,
Macau Lover
Hong Kong Lover
Seoul Lover
Okinawa Lover
Tokyo Lover