Cops in Blackhawk, Colorado are writing tickets for "Professional Gambling"

[Dan Druff]

I'll show you the tweets, which I believe are telling a real story, and then I will give my commentary:

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1971664165690659019

Embedded Tweet

https://twitter.com/#!/x/status/1971742345545896395

This occurred at Ameristar.

For those of you that don't know, Blackhawk is a high-elevation town (8500) with legalized gambling. It is 35 miles west of Denver. There are major casino/hotels there, one of them being Ameristar.

If you click on the picture, it shows "Professional Gambling" written on the ticket by the officer, as the type of offense.

So what happened, and is it really a crime to be a pro gambler in Blackhawk?


I'll explain in the next post.

[theywontpayontuesday]

The problem with this accusation is the gambling does depend on luck and outcome through luck. Details matter, hard to actually understand the story.

[Dan Druff]

Grok had it a little bit incorrect. It's actually statute 10-18-102, not 10-18-103. The 103 part is just the penalty for violating 102.

Here's the text of the law: https://codes.findlaw.com/co/title-1...ect-18-10-102/

This text is very confusing, so you won't get much out of it if you attempt to read and process it.

This is all complicated, so let me try to make it simpler.

Prior to 2008, Colorado allowed limited gambling in certain locations, such as Black Hawk, with a $5 maximum wager, and only poker, slots, and blackjack. In 2008, that got raised to $100, and they added craps, baccarat, and roulette.

In 2020, sportsbetting was added.

Most of the law against "professional gambling" is a misnomer. They're referring to "unlicensed gambling" as "professional gambling", when obviously these are two different things. They're making it explicitly illegal in all of Colorado to run your own unlicensed sportsbook, casino, cardroom, etc. That's all very standard.

However, here's where the loophole comes in.

#8 from the link above:

(4) “Gambling information” means a communication with respect to any wager made in the course of, and any information intended to be used for, professional gambling. In the application of this definition the following shall be presumed to be intended for use in professional gambling: Information as to wagers, betting odds, or changes in betting odds. Legitimate news reporting of an event for public dissemination is not gambling information within the meaning of this article.
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(8) “Professional gambling” means:

(a) Aiding or inducing another to engage in gambling, with the intent to derive a profit therefrom; or

(b) Participating in gambling and having, other than by virtue of skill or luck, a lesser chance of losing or a greater chance of winning than one or more of the other participants.

This makes it illegal to assist anyone who is gambling for profit, or to provide information to someone who is gambling for profit!

This is very broad, and is very bad legislation.

For example, this makes it illegal to tell someone, "Hey, there's a machine in Ameristar which is currently in a +EV state. You might want to go play it!"

It also makes it illegal to hold a machine in an advantage state for someone else, for the purposes of that other person playing for profit. That's what occurred in this case, and why the guy was written a ticket.

Presumably the casino noticed that someone was holding a machine without playing (I'm guessing by just sitting there and occupying the space, perhaps with a few bucks inserted), and then an AP showed up, replaced him, and handed him a little money for doing so.

It appears that this guy holding the machine received a ticket, as he was the one in violation for "aiding" the AP. Presumably they also could have ticketed the AP for gambling with "a lesser chance of losing or a greater chance of winning than one or more of the other participants." It's not clear if the AP got ticketed.


It seems that they're mainly aiming this law at team, cooperative, or assistant-aided advantage play.

Ameristar will probably defend this by explaining that they're doing this to reduce slot vulturing. Still shitty. If they really want to put a stop to predatory vulturing, they should make it illegal to approach someone playing a machine, entice them to leave it, and then take over play yourself.

[theywontpayontuesday]

Such bs, such government being too large, to prosecute for things which are not really crimes in the eyes of the community.

[kewlJ]

This is NOT surprising. Colorado has sort of hung the "not welcome" sign out for advantage players for a while now. They were one of the first states to crackdown on the multi-carding teams. And in doing that, they arrested some grandmotherly type ladies that were not part of any teams, just collecting free play from spouses and family members. I suppose they dropped charges on some of them after the stories hit the news.

My brother and I worked a play in Colorado a few years back and you just could feel an unwelcoming vibe. If you are an AP and there is an opportunity in Colorado, you should just be aware there is a little extra risk involved and weight that accordingly.

And some of this kind of crack down on AP sentiments is occurring everywhere. THAT is why it is so annoying to read a fable about a guy that wins every day and the casinos employ zero counter-measures, while patting him on the back. It isn't that I am trying to be mean to someone just writing a little story. It is that shit is NOT reality. But I don't want to hijack Druffs thread with that nonsense.

[Garnabby]

KJ, stay away from where you're not welcome, and, then, you won't have that perceived "little extra risk". Casinos don't want to have to even look at you, you know this, but, you, supposedly, if even believe anything you write anymore, keep sticking out your arms. As V puts it, does not compute. Ha.

Just another piece of human shit, like Tasha.

[kewlJ]

The above is the kind of shit I object to. This is a legitimate thread, started by forum owner no less, and one of the trolls/KJ hater has to hijack so he can take a shot at me. Isn't there enough threads on this forum that you can take your shots at me, without hijacking every damn thread?

[Garnabby]

Casinos don't owe you anything. The people who play normally accept the house edge. I have no sympathy for people like you, even if buried out in the desert.

People sucking my blood are taking their chances.

[jdaewoo]

Another retard who thinks just because he's too stupid to beat anything in a casino, that nobody else should be able to.

[Garnabby]

Like it, or hate it, casinos are just another legal business trying to make a buck. All of you guys ought to be rounded up for criminal harassment (stalking), the same as banned from forums for nothing but a different sort and degree of harassment. Ha.

[Rob.Singer]

There's obviously either a chunk of this story that's missing, or someone's bs'ing their way thru this.

Just recently I played 9/6 ddbp at the round bar at Ameristar Black Hawk during a promotion that put the play just over 100.8%. I had two $2500 handpays, made a profit of $1300, and my wife who doesn't play held my machine twice for me while I took dumps. No One Cared. In fact, they already sent me an offer to come in with $200 free play, which we're doing soon when we go to Wyoming to pick up our new shih tzu puppy.

Boom.

[DGenBen]

There's obviously either a chunk of this story that's missing, or someone's bs'ing their way thru this.

Just recently I played 9/6 ddbp at the round bar at Ameristar Black Hawk during a promotion that put the play just over 100.8%. I had two $2500 handpays, made a profit of $1300, and my wife who doesn't play held my machine twice for me while I took dumps. No One Cared. In fact, they already sent me an offer to come in with $200 free play, which we're doing soon when we go to Wyoming to pick up our new shih tzu puppy.

Boom.

Having your wife hold a VP machine with a set pay scale while you drop a deuce for a few minutes is something the casino wouldn’t care about.

Having some stinky meth head hold some slot that’s in a good state so no one else can play it while someone with money comes out to play at, they would probably look a lot more unfavorable on.

[MDawg]

The only for profit scheme UNKewlJ has performed in a casino involves prostitution, and sugar daddy ploys (ploys, not plays).

But of course she will try to turn any topic into something she's allegedly already done, a place she's already been.

At some point you will realize you're dealing with a compulsive liar.

[jdaewoo]

Nobody's writing a ticket for professional gambling for this retard.

[kewlJ]

Reading Rob's latest claim, I feel like I am reading something from 2014, 2015, rather than 2025.

First anyone familiar with Rob knows that he always claimed he played VP at games with less than 100% return and that he was able to make money because his great 3 or 4 tier progressive wagering system could overcome the negative EV of the game. He also always said he didn't mess with players cards and whatever small percent you could add on from points and offers.

NOW, all of the sudden Rob is playing 100+ % return games and playing rated and getting offers. He must have learned a little something along the way...probably from mickeycrimm publicly or privately. And that is good. I am all in favor of people understanding the math and learning to play at an advantage.

Problem is, as I said, what Rob just wrote is 10 years outdated. You USED to be able to do what Rob is claiming, but no longer can in 2025 unless a particular casino has marketing people a sleep at the wheel. In 2025, if a player is playing VP rated and ONLY plays +EV games with over 100% return, they will immediately be identified as an AP, unless their play shows major holes. And the very first thing to go will be any kind of offers.

If you have a hardon for playing VP at an advantage now a days, you might as well forgo playing rated and just get your advantage from the better than 100% return. Longevity-wise you will last longer.

So it is nice that this particular claim of Rob's doesn't defy the math, like most do, but I am afraid it isn't 2014 anymore Rob.

[kewlJ]

On top of that, Rob's goofy strategy for his progressive tier system, would have him play non-optimally, going for the larger payouts. So that right there negates playing a 100+ return game.

Maybe that is why they haven't identified Rob as an AP and taken any action. Major holes in his game, negating the 100+ % return. Or in other words....just another (long-term) losing player.

[Dan Druff]

There's obviously either a chunk of this story that's missing, or someone's bs'ing their way thru this.

Just recently I played 9/6 ddbp at the round bar at Ameristar Black Hawk during a promotion that put the play just over 100.8%. I had two $2500 handpays, made a profit of $1300, and my wife who doesn't play held my machine twice for me while I took dumps. No One Cared. In fact, they already sent me an offer to come in with $200 free play, which we're doing soon when we go to Wyoming to pick up our new shih tzu puppy.

Boom.

Having your wife hold a VP machine with a set pay scale while you drop a deuce for a few minutes is something the casino wouldn’t care about.

Having some stinky meth head hold some slot that’s in a good state so no one else can play it while someone with money comes out to play at, they would probably look a lot more unfavorable on.

Exactly.

I wouldn't even fault the casino for sending security over to whoever is holding the machine, and telling them to get up and never do this shit again or they're banned for life.

Making this into a criminal offense, however, is really bad, and it becomes a slippery slope.

The fact that you can't even disseminate AP info without it being a crime is outrageous.

[Rob.Singer]

On top of that, Rob's goofy strategy for his progressive tier system, would have him play non-optimally, going for the larger payouts. So that right there negates playing a 100+ return game.

Maybe that is why they haven't identified Rob as an AP and taken any action. Major holes in his game, negating the 100+ % return. Or in other words....just another (long-term) losing player.

Kew, you're acting just like the Democrats are as this shutdown got underway and continues: you're ignoring all I've said about how I played and the where, when, & why of it....and you're rewriting history using a bevy of lies to fit your polluted agenda.

I attribute it to your inability to succeed at basically anything other than concocting internet stories, along with your array of diseases and that crossed wire upstairs.

[DGenBen]

Like it, or hate it, casinos are just another legal business trying to make a buck. All of you guys ought to be rounded up for criminal harassment (stalking), the same as banned from forums for nothing but a different sort and degree of harassment. Ha.

Yes casinos are just another legal business trying to make a buck, but people engaging in advantage play are also just another legal business trying to make a buck.

[Garnabby]

Like it, or hate it, casinos are just another legal business trying to make a buck. All of you guys ought to be rounded up for criminal harassment (stalking), the same as banned from forums for nothing but a different sort and degree of harassment. Ha.

Yes casinos are just another legal business trying to make a buck, but people engaging in advantage play are also just another legal business trying to make a buck.

Not illegal isn't necessarily legal, let alone strictly legal.