Overcomped

[Alan Mendelson]

Casino freebies are just promotional products provided to them for nothing. So they're not losing a dime by pawning them off on the player.

I am not sure this is correct. I think casinos pay a lot of money to vendors for various products and gifts and they certainly have to cover the costs for meals and show tickets that they give away.

While a player might value a shopping spree for $500 the casino might have paid $300 for the "voucher" that was given to the player.

[Rob.Singer]

It's absolutely true--the casinos pay little to nothing for all that stuff they "give away"....esp. at the year-end giveaways. The companies involved in the GGWU for instance, make their money back plus much more from the enormous amount of advertising it creates. Anyone who's been to business school and anyone who understands what marketing & selling is all about can easily figure this out. It has nothing to do with casinos, lawnmower stores, or any other specific business.

Red, you & Dan must believe the casinos want to make losers into winners--and winners feel like the casinos are their own personal ATM's--by handing out just enough freebies in order to accomplish this amazing feat. Do you guys claim a profit just because you get a few free flights from your airline miles? Do you claim a profit from your grocery store points? Then why claim a profit from gambling rewards? The stuff is nothing more than what jbjb said it was, and any self-valuing is purely for those who want or need to distort figures for whatever reasons.

Someone like Jean Scott is the ultimate in this kind of deception. She claims to be a winning gambler, and does so via a method only she can come up with without ever revealing her value system. Dancer has always used the same trickery to do the same thing, when we all know nothing other than direct gambling results tells the tale of a successful or losing gambler. This loose use of the word "overcomped" simply grew out of all the misleading discussions about what roll comps actually play.

[redietz]

Uhhh, Rob, I don't claim a profit from gambling rewards.

I've said this about a dozen times, but I'll say it again. The only thing I count towards profit is what is gained playing through the free play once. I do NOT count rooms, or meals, or tournaments, or anything like that. I don't even count the occasional elevator ride with hookers at 6 AM as they leave their clients' rooms, and I'm going for a jog. None of that counts.

I don't know any way of saying this any more clearly. Rob, do you need a translator? Braille?

[Alan Mendelson]

Uhhh, Rob, I don't claim a profit from gambling rewards.

I've said this about a dozen times, but I'll say it again. The only thing I count towards profit is what is gained playing through the free play once. I do NOT count rooms, or meals, or tournaments, or anything like that. I don't even count the occasional elevator ride with hookers at 6 AM as they leave their clients' rooms, and I'm going for a jog. None of that counts.

I don't know any way of saying this any more clearly. Rob, do you need a translator? Braille?

Okay. But Dan is counting free rooms especially when he uses them to play in the WSOP. So do free rooms for the WSOP count? I would agree with Dan that they do.

[Rob.Singer]

Red, did you even read what you wrote? First you say you don't claim a profit from gambling rewards....then you say you claim whatever is gained as profit from using free play once. I know this is a tough subject, inasmuch as attempting to claim anything other than direct gambling as profit goes.

Dan claims Rio rooms during WSOP as profit because he refuses to realize that the ONLY reason he goes is because he is easily reeled in by the CET marketing dept.--which he of course understandably badmouths. Now we'll hear all about he was going to go anyway. But if anybody actually believes he'd be going if he had to pay for a room each if those nights, which is doubtful he could afford anyway for reasons I won't discuss here right now, then you must be his mother.

[Alan Mendelson]

I think there are a lot of reasons Dan would be staying at the Rio during the WSOP. First is convenience. He doesn't want to be commuting from a rental in Summerlin and being at another hotel (even across the street) presents problems when tournaments have long days and nights.

I fully support any value he gives to having rooms at the Rio. I think he can value them at full price, too. But I doubt they make him overcomped to the point that he gets no-mailed and hosts don't want to talk to him.

[Dan Druff]

I didn't know that your comp level has any bearing on hosts? I thought hosts earn a bonus based on your play. Am I wrong about that?

I was also wondering about your mega reward credit balance that you told us about. I never quite understood how a player who had the minimal amounts of tier points earned during the year to obtain 7 Stars status which included using tier credit bonus points, happened to also have a big balance of reward credits? My undertanding is that there are no bonuses for reward credits, so when you play 5,000 tier points to get a 10,000 tier point bonus, you only earned 5,000 RCs and there is no bonus for the RCs.

So where did the huge balance of RCs come from, since you always minimized your play to get your "overcomped" status?

I don't use my RCs very often, so they add up. I also have gotten big globs of RCs from various promos, such as the 5x RCs at Rincon, the $500 in RCs for taking the annual trip to New Orleans, etc.

I also earn $500 worth for my play through the base tier credits I run each time I earn Seven Stars.

Regarding hosts, they do not earn commission on an overcomped player. The player has to basically "earn themselves back to zero" (meaning no longer overcomped) before the hosts earns commission in that market.

Even in other markets, hosts are reluctant to touch overcomped players, as they suspect the same thing will happen in their market. Hosts need to justify to their boss why they give comps to a player, so if that player has an overcomped history, the host is told not to give anything but the minimum benefits his tier status entitles him.

There are a few markets where I'm not overcomped -- namely Tahoe, New Orleans, Laughlin, and Rincon. However, I've also no-played all of these except New Orleans in my last visit, so I can't imagine hosts are dying for me to return to these places, either.

[Dan Druff]

I think there are a lot of reasons Dan would be staying at the Rio during the WSOP. First is convenience. He doesn't want to be commuting from a rental in Summerlin and being at another hotel (even across the street) presents problems when tournaments have long days and nights.

I fully support any value he gives to having rooms at the Rio. I think he can value them at full price, too. But I doubt they make him overcomped to the point that he gets no-mailed and hosts don't want to talk to him.

You're half right.

Yes, I decided I prefer staying at the Rio during WSOP. When I lived in Vegas, it was a pain in the ass playing the WSOP and not having a place on premises, even though I only lived about 8 minutes away (though it took about 15 with the walking back and forth from the car).

I stay over 20 nights at the Rio during WSOP -- usually around 23 or so. That by itself doesn't make me overcomped, but it sure as hell contributes to the situation.

I just don't play at all in the Vegas market because the VP sucks, and where it doesn't suck, the tier credits are degraded.

However, I redeem many of my comps in Vegas (hotel rooms and food, primarily), and my home property is there, so they also pay for my annual trip.

Trust me when I say that I am massively overcomped in Vegas, so much to where hosts are actually shocked when they look at it.

[Dan Druff]

If Dan is happy with his offers and with whatever he's getting that's all that matters.

But what I am questioning is how he is twisting his lack of play and how he has been no-mailed into his belief that he is overcomped.

As soon as he starts playing again, the comps will come back. (Well, not immediately, because we know it takes a couple of months for the computer program to kick in.)

The most important point for everyone to remember -- and I am addressing the general public that reads this -- comps are not designed to make you, the player, whole after a loss. Comps are designed only to return a small percentage of what the casino expects you to lose playing whatever games you lose. The ONLY WAY to come out ahead in the "comps game" is to actually win in the casino AND collect the comps you are entitled to.

This means that the only way to truly be OVERCOMPED is to actually have a profit in the casino AND collecting the comps you are offered. If you lost in the casino, you can't be overcomped. Ever. Period.

So if I lost $10 overall in the casino, yet had free rooms comped for 2 years, including at times I really had a need for them, I couldn't claim that as a net gain?

That's a pretty ridiculous statement.

[Dan Druff]

Understandable, but to me it's value is the cash I get for it if "I" sell it. Not what's I may pay for it. We over pay for just about every purchase we make from food in a grocery store to cars to home essentials.

Casino freebies are just promotional products provided to them for nothing. So they're not losing a dime by pawning them off on the player.

That depends upon which freebies you're talking about.

In cases such as the "free" NCL cruise, you're correct. That's a marketing partnership, and CET does not pay NCL to give that to you.

In cases such as food, you're partially correct. $100 worth of free food doesn't cost the casino $100, but at the same time, it's not free. They still have to pay for the food, the employees serving it to you, and give up a space in the restaurant which could otherwise be held by paying customers.

In cases such as hotel rooms, you're partially correct. If the hotel is not full, and if your type of room has others which are sitting vacant anyway, then your stay with them costs next to nothing. However, if you are hogging up a room which would otherwise be in demand and occupied by a paying customer (think New Year's Eve, or during other high-profile dates), then they are losing real money by having you occupy it.

In cases such as freeplay, you are mostly incorrect. Freeplay, on average, will translate into a high percentage of its face value, though there will be plenty of variance. Yes, they hope you will lose back what you win (and perhaps bet even more on top of it, and also lose), but that's the gambler's choice. When I run freeplay, I run only the freeplay and keep the real money it generates for me.

In cases such as airline flights, you are incorrect. Other than charters, they are paying retail price (or very close to it) to fly you to these destinations. They hope to recoup it via your gambling losses, but again, you are not forced to play to "earn" it on the back end.

The bottom line with comps is that you have to be honest about their value TO YOU.

For example, I like taking cruises. I took cruises for years before I got them via Seven Stars, and didn't get them comped or mostly comped. So when I get a highly discounted cruise via CET now, it has value to me, as it's a vacation I enjoy, and had paid for previously.

Alan does not like cruises. That benefit is worth zero to him. He doesn't even use it.

See the difference?

[Dan Druff]

If CET has so little regard for you, why do you remain loyal?

Because I can get more out of them than they get out of me. I don't care what their "regard" is for me.

I care what my friends and family think of me, not large corporations.

You were spending and losing money throughout the year to gain 7 Star, CET was providing plenty of comps while you were spending and losing. At some point you curtailed your play after you attained 7 Star and the comps dried up. CET doesn't care about you now because you are not spending and losing. Go back to the spending pattern you displayed while "attaining" 7 Star and the comps come back. This does not seem like a mystery.

I don't earn many comps on the way up to 7 Stars, except some mediocre ones in the markets where I play (such as Tahoe).

I redeem far more comps compared to my amount of play compared to the average player. Not just more, but FAR more. That's what's going on here. This can occur because Seven Stars guarantees your comps, whereas the normal casino model takes a "what have you done for us lately" approach, and you get denied after your play dries up. Seven Stars allows you to override that denial, which is why it's so unique and powerful compared to other casinos' comp programs.

[Dan Druff]

I know Dan can speak for himself but I did want to let others know that the term overcomped is real and can be achieved for a variety of reasons. In our case it happened to us several years ago at our home property in Bossier City. With us it had nothing to do with inconsistent play but we had about a 3 or 4 month period of time that we invited friends and family members to our casino and our host gave us free rooms, free concert tickets, and free extra room credit to compensate for the extra guests. We thought nothing of it at the time. For the first month or so after this time our free play offers and other mailers remained about the same and then all of a sudden we quit getting offers. We contacted them thinking somehow they had a mixup with our addresses. They said they would look into it but we never heard back.

We were still able to get free rooms through our host so on our next trip to Bossier City we paid a visit to our host's office to see if they could give us an idea what was going on because we were somewhat irked that we were not getting any freeplay. After about 30 minutes or so meeting with the director or marketing and her computer we were told that we were overcomped. That was the exact work she used. She said that there was nothing she could do but for us to be patient and that it would take a couple of months for our offers to go back to normal. To make a long story short that is exactly what happened.

Maybe overcomped needs its own thread as it is kind of taking over the discussion on this and the GGWU thread.

Thank you for verifying this. And yes, I think I will take this overcomped stuff into its own thread.

[Dan Druff]

What were the circumstances that prompted a host (or hosts) to offer the information that you are overcomped?

Oh, so many of them.

- During my Seven Stars Annual Trip, I ask if they can give me a suite (which most people get on these trips). Not only am I denied, but I've been told on more than one occasion (at multiple properties) that I'm so overcomped that they are going to have to find some special override code to get the system to both comp my room and allow the $500 folio credit which comes with the trip.

- Occasionally the CCS (800 number) cannot book my guaranteed 4-night reservation, and they have to put me through to a host. The host then bristles, telling me that I'm overcomped, and that the system keeps rejecting his/her attempt to get the 4 nights through, as it will only give me 3 and then wants to charge me a rate for the 4th. After a lot of work, they get it through, but I can tell it's a hassle, and they're not acting.

- I get Vegas offers where it gives me something small, such as $50 freeplay and $25 food credit with my hotel stay. If I'm going to Vegas anyway, I figure I might as well book with that code rather than just use the standard Seven Stars free room benefit. However, EVERY TIME I try to use it, it fails for some reason, and I have to talk to a host to get it put through. In many cases, the host tells me that they can't put it through for me because I'm overcomped (even though this was an offer I was mailed!), and that I just need to forego it.

- When I attempt to inquire about a 2nd room in Vegas for friends or family, I get instantly denied, and am told I'm overcomped. If I ask for at least a discount or casino rate, again I'm told that I'm overcomped and will have to pay rack, or I'm quoted a casino rate which is WORSE than rack rate!

- When I attempted to make my first reservation for Tahoe in many years, they had no play history on me, and all they could see was that I was overcomped badly in the Vegas market. I wanted 5 free nights there, which I could get anyway as a Seven Stars, but the host refused. He said he would give me four, and evaluate my play to see if I've "earned" the 5th. Knowing he was rightfully concerned I would no-play, I offered to play a minimum of $250,000 coin-in, and told him that all I wanted was a conditional agreement that I would get that free 5th night if I lived up to that minimum coin-in promise. He refused, telling me that I was too overcomped and that he still could not promise anything. Laughably, I then hung up on him and called the CCS (who can't see my play history), and they snap-booked the 5 free nights for me. And guess what? I played that $250,000 in coin-in as promised anyway.

[Dan Druff]

Generally speaking, people who are not welcomed back as customers are in fact problem people....aka, people with too many issues for their own good.

How many times has Dan painstakingly explained his phobia about being "overcharged" for some small item or being "mistreated or dissed" by someone of authority in person or on the phone....only to waste huge amounts of effort and spend days chasing his loss?

It isn't too difficult to see why these things keep happening to him. Some people have these type of annoying personalities--that's all it is. They go around always feeling entitled to getting special treatment, getting more than the other guy, and they live their life in "paranoid mode" always thinking that other people are doing to them what they take enormous pride in doing: taking advantage of others in some way, shape, or fashion.

So for Dan to persist in this fantasy world of being overcomped, it seems all too normal and it won't change. When someone lives a life totally based on conflict, you're gonna be fed a constant flow of this type of goofy stuff.

Rob, how were you a Vegas columnist for so many years?

You know very well that casinos simply 86 problem customers, and that's that.

If I were someone who repeatedly caused trouble there, they would have kicked me from all CET properties by now.

I don't cause trouble, except when something directly affecting me is screwed up. And again, it's almost always something on the hotel side, NOT the casino side, and those two departments are totally separate, using different note systems.

It's nothing personal with CET not giving me many offers. The computer has determined I'm overcomped (which is correct), and therefore offers me little.

I am still happy because my GUARANTEED benefits with the Seven Stars program is all I really need.

Why are you having such a hard time understanding this?

[blackhole]

I know this is a gambling site with gambling discussions. But why is everyone here, and why would anyone care one way or the other about Dan and his comps?

Just about everything said on gambling forums are never proved with confirmed fact, so why 4 pages on this topic.

I understand most of you here are big shots with big time comps, (7 stars etc.) but, do you really care about Dan or is this just another way of blowing smoke up your own heavy hitting play butts and giving readers the opportunity to admire your own action in envy?

[Dan Druff]

I know this is a gambling site with gambling discussions. But why is everyone here, and why would anyone care one way or the other about Dan and his comps?

Just about everything said on gambling forums are never proved with confirmed fact, so why 4 pages on this topic.

I understand most of you here are big shots with big time comps, (7 stars etc.) but, do you really care about Dan or is this just another way of blowing smoke up your own heavy hitting play butts and giving readers the opportunity to admire your own action in envy?

Well said.

To me it seems like rationalization.

The people attacking my (true and verifiable) "overcomped" claims are the ones who engage in a much more typical gambling pattern -- a pattern that casinos love.

Nobody likes to feel that they're "doing it wrong". When you're paying more or getting worse value than your neighbor, you always want to rationalize that he's suffering certain negative consequences from it which still give your method the upper hand.

In this case, there seem to be plenty of people with the attitude of, "You're not getting over on the casino, they've just no-mailed you because you stopped playing!"

They want to believe this because they also realize that THEY aren't getting over on the casino, so they don't like the idea that anyone else is, either.

They are trying to make the case that little play = little comps, big play = big comps, and neither is particularly advantageous over the other.

I am stating that there is a very clear law of diminishing returns, and that I am straddling that line in a +EV fashion.

I understand if my style of playing the comp game isn't appealing to them, but the least they can do is acknowledge the fact that I'm extracting a lot of value in comparison to what I put in.

[Alan Mendelson]

Question about RCs and earning tier points. Dan:

When you earn 5,000 tier points on your way to earn 7 Stars you also get 5,000 reward credits.

5,000 reward credits is worth $50 and not $500 as you wrote above.

Regarding being overcomped the real question is this:

Do you have a profit playing casino games? If you do you can be overcomped. If you lose money in the casino then only a true and honest accounting will determine if all those comps erase what you lost.

Being overcomped by $5,000 worth of comps is meaningless if you lost $5,001 of real money.

That's really the bottom line for everyone.

[Alan Mendelson]

I know this is a gambling site with gambling discussions. But why is everyone here, and why would anyone care one way or the other about Dan and his comps?

Just about everything said on gambling forums are never proved with confirmed fact, so why 4 pages on this topic.

I understand most of you here are big shots with big time comps, (7 stars etc.) but, do you really care about Dan or is this just another way of blowing smoke up your own heavy hitting play butts and giving readers the opportunity to admire your own action in envy?

I don't know of anyone besides Dan who says he is overcomped or talks about a plan to beat the casinos.

I'm not overcomped and I admit to losing every year.
The question really is about Dan's claims. If he's really beating the system with comps and a casino profit a lot of people would like to know how it's done.

Forgive the analogy but Dan is to comps what Rob Singer is to video poker.

[coach belly]

When you earn 5,000 tier points on your way to earn 7 Stars you also get 5,000 reward credits.

5,000 reward credits is worth $50 and not $500 as you wrote above.

My understanding is that when you play a 5000 tier credit gaming day, you receive a 10000 TC bonus.

If you do that 10 times, you have reached 150000 TCs and 50000 RCs,
or as Dan wrote above....

I also earn $500 worth for my play through the base tier credits I run each time I earn Seven Stars.

Is this correct, Dan?

[coach belly]

I don't know of anyone besides Dan who says he is overcomped or talks about a plan to beat the casinos.

If he's really beating the system with comps and a casino profit a lot of people would like to know how it's done.

I can't speak for a lot of people, but I would sure like to know how it's done,
and I believe that Dan has explained much of how it's done.

Dan...what denomination do you play, and how many hours does it take to reach 5000 TCs?

Also, what daily bankroll is typically required to play and reach 5000 TCs?

Not looking so much for a theoretical WOV type of answer, what kind of swings have you experienced in your actual play?