Rigged machines, programmed cold cycles, and server based technology??

[blackhole]

Of course they're rigged against you by short paying true odds.

And yeah, we get it. Your a jealous loser who doesn't want to learn to gain an edge to beat casino games. Get over it.

I’m not getting into another unimportant discussion with another unimportant alleged self-proclaimed AP. It always eventually comes to the same ending with you guys. “The AP challenge” Stuff 10k in your pockets and catch a flight to Vegas or wherever, and meet an unknown anonymous degenerate gambler from some anonymous gambling forum. You can’t or won’t prove anything, so why bother coming here? Oh yea, I almost forgot, to remind fools like me that your smarter than me.

Shouldn’t you be busy somewhere reducing the casinos profit margins.

[slingshot]

Love these free for alls. I was able to pick out a gem or two.

[jbjb]

I’m not getting into another unimportant discussion with another unimportant alleged self-proclaimed AP. It always eventually comes to the same ending with you guys. “The AP challenge” Stuff 10k in your pockets and catch a flight to Vegas or wherever, and meet an unknown anonymous degenerate gambler from some anonymous gambling forum. You can’t or won’t prove anything, so why bother coming here? Oh yea, I almost forgot, to remind fools like me that your smarter than me.

Shouldn’t you be busy somewhere reducing the casinos profit margins.

It's not about proving anything to anybody. Pick something that gives you an advantage, learn the proper strategy, go find the opportunities. That's all you need to do. None of it is difficult. There are still hundreds of sloppy Three Card Poker dealers out there giving you a 3.48% edge. Start there.

And Sling, happy to oblige. :-)

[redietz]

Blackhole, correct me if I'm wrong, but is it true you do concede that there are APs, just nobody who you have debated/criticized on forums?

I'm trying to grasp your argument here. Is it that the alleged APs you encounter online don't measure up in some way to what a "real AP" would be like? How would you know? Guesswork? Personal experience? Do you have a checklist to discern self-proclaimed fake APs from real APs? Or do you think nobody wins, period, and that APs are like Bigfoot?

[Rob.Singer]

It's easy to frustrate gamblers like jbjb (and whether he really gambles at all is anybody's guess....just like when "AP extraordinaire" arci spent years trying to portray himself as being a winner of "tens of thousands in every year but one" until he did what only he can do: stepping into his own humiliating trap by submitting a few records of winning very little if anything at all). Just mention how likely & possible it is that their theories and "gain and edge" BS can easily be rendered useless by casinos at will or even by error, and their whole world goes into TILT.

It's beginning to look like jbjb is nothing more than an armchair gambler who sits at home in his worn out & lumpy easy chair picking his toes while watching news snippets.

[mickeycrimm]

Of course they're rigged against you by short paying true odds.

This is how Class III machines in the United States work whether it's video poker, video keno, video blackjack, video line games, or 3,4,5 reel slots.

The discussion of video poker gets muddied up because it is a game of choice. If the payscale indicates a 99.54% return to player, that is only with optimum strategy. The great mass of players don't know optimum strategy so the stats of the game will show the house making a little more money than the intrinsic value of the game.

Video keno gives a clear picture of how RNG's combined with the payscale work. Most keno players will play five spots or more. But giving an example there can muddy things up because of the more complicated math involved. So I'm going to use a simple 2-spot for example. I think you will find 2-spots on the video keno machines--and in live keno--in your jurisdiction and you can compare the payscales to what I put up here.

How many 2-spot combinations are there when there are 80 balls in the tank and 20 numbers are drawn?

80X79/2X1 = 3160

If you choose, say, the numbers 35 and 36, how many combinations in the tank will include the 35 and 36?

20X19/2X1 = 190

So what is the chance we will hit the 2-spot?

3160/190 = 16.631578

So we have a 1 in 16.631578 chance to hit the 2-spot.

This is where the house not paying off at true odds comes in. If you look at 2-spot payscales on machines in your jurisdiction you will most likely find a few different payoffs. The most common is a payoff of 15 times the bet. But I will cover all of the different payoffs.

If the payoff is 16 times the bet then return to player is:

16/16.631578 = 96.2%

If the payoff is 15 times the bet then return to player is:

15/16.631578 = 90.19%

If the payoff is 14 times the bet then return to player is:

14/16.631578 = 84.17%


If you take a look at the payoff for the 2-spot in LIVE KENO you will most likely find a payoff of 12 for 1.

12/16.631578 = 72.15%

You can see that live keno has a much much bigger house edge than video keno. But the caveat is that on today's modern machines you can play as many as 40 games per minute whereas in live keno you might play one game every 5 minutes.

The above example should show that there really is no need for programming the RNG of a video keno game to have hot and cold streaks. The house edge, established by not paying off at true odds, will take care of itself in the long run.

[blackhole]

Blackhole, correct me if I'm wrong, but is it true you do concede that there are APs, just nobody who you have debated/criticized on forums?

I'm trying to grasp your argument here. Is it that the alleged APs you encounter online don't measure up in some way to what a "real AP" would be like? How would you know? Guesswork? Personal experience? Do you have a checklist to discern self-proclaimed fake APs from real APs? Or do you think nobody wins, period, and that APs are like Bigfoot?

Yes, it’s true I do concede that AP does exist. I’ve been reading about different plays for years with confirmed facts detailing the casinos, tactics, amounts, even the people involved.

A real AP in my eyes is a confirmed and exposed AP.

Of course, with all the tactics being used today to earn a profit that include playing special casino promotions, playing certain games for kickbacks, for free play, for comps, and of course knowing when to play jackpot games with a +ev, different table game tactics like counting, hole carding, etc., could certainly produce a profit.

I just don’t believe, unless I read confirmed facts about the amounts AP’s like to brag about on forums with typed words only.

It makes no sense for any AP to be on a forum bragging about their talents. Why brag how your supporting your family on the casinos dime while card counting, or playing certain video poker games, or taking most of the jackpots from slot machines. Some idiots even explain how it’s done with math formulas, even if the machine is no longer in play, you planted the math seed.

Maybe the rules for table games changing, or finding it hard to find a good poker machine to play, is the result of AP’s needing to express their genius.

I have a hard time believing the casinos provide that many opportunities to support all the anonymous self-proclaimed AP’s found on the internet. I’m certain plenty are making some profit with hard work and some may still be able to support themselves AP’ing. (at least still for now)

I know one thing for sure, if I had the goose that lays the golden eggs, I wouldn’t even mention I have a goose. The goose could only lay so many eggs in its lifetime as it is. Especially, on the World Wide Web.

Please AP’s, don’t come after me with the AP challenge after reading this.

[jbjb]

I don't think I've "bragged" about any income. We had one ridiculous year because a certain dealer was exposing TWO cards at Miss. Stud. Other than that, nothing extraordinary. Personally, I just like the freedom.

[mickeycrimm]

Some idiots even explain how it’s done with math formulas, even if the machine is no longer in play, you planted the math seed.

And some idiots publicly bash the guy putting up the math formula's when they should instead be encouraging him to continue. That is, if they really want to learn how things are done.

[Rob.Singer]

mickey couldn't get anyone out of 11,000+ to care about his keno babble on vpfree, so he did what he does best: he drifted over here thinking at least SOMEONE would like his copy and paste job.

giggle giggle.....

[mickeycrimm]

mickey couldn't get anyone out of 11,000+ to care about his keno babble on vpfree, so he did what he does best: he drifted over here thinking at least SOMEONE would like his copy and paste job. giggle giggle.....

Would you care to verify to everyone that I copied and pasted from an old post on vpFREE, Rob? I've never given a 2-spot example on vpFREE, Mr. voodoo gambler.

[blackhole]

And some idiots publicly bash the guy putting up the math formula's when they should instead be encouraging him to continue. That is, if they really want to learn how things are done.

I have no desire to learn. By the time you figured out all that nickel and dime nonsense, punters like Alan already pissed away having a blast with wife and friends, more than you could make in two months playing it.

Not everyone wants to go to casinos to grind out a little profit, rating their visit by what they earn per hour. Many of us go for the thrill and entertainment that’s available. We want to leave working in the rear-view mirror when we go. Alan is also proof that punters could have single wins larger than your whole year of breaking your ass hustling.

[redietz]

I have no desire to learn. By the time you figured out all that nickel and dime nonsense, punters like Alan already pissed away having a blast with wife and friends, more than you could make in two months playing it.

Not everyone wants to go to casinos to grind out a little profit, rating their visit by what they earn per hour. Many of us go for the thrill and entertainment that’s available. We want to leave working in the rear-view mirror when we go. Alan is also proof that punters could have single wins larger than your whole year of breaking your ass hustling.

I could understand older APs, after 40 years of beating the system anonymously, wanting to get a little recognition for what they've done that basically almost nobody else could do (either skill-wise or psychologically discipline-ise). It would be the same as some CEO or famous football coach writing a book after retiring. You're stepping away, the adventure is over, so there's no terrible downside to spilling some beans.

Thrill, entertainment, and breaking one's ass is all in the eye of the beholder. I don't see much difference between sitting on the curb and betting on what color traffic lights will turn as opposed to roulette or craps. Simple variance on a casino table doesn't hold much interest for me, but that's just me.

[RS__]

Part of the "thill" of APing is being able to beat the casino at their own game....and make a living doing it. Plus, most of the time, it's pretty fun...or at least not too bad of work. Sometimes it's not fun, like if you're stuck on a machine for 10-20 hours at a time....but that's been pretty rare....and even then, you're usually doing it with teammates or other teams.

I have fun doing it, I make money doing it, and I certainly don't think I'm "busting my ass" (although I probably should be).

[Rob.Singer]

And therein lies the reason why nobody believes anything written by self-proclaimed "AP's".

Anyone can sit at home, quote theory, claim there's "very lucrative ap plays out there" and at the same time say "but I won't tell you what they are or where", and then try their hardest to portray themselves as "making money doing it!"

These jokers could be anybody---people like mickeycrimm who spends all his time making things up and fantasizing about what a great life gambling theory could provide. These other guys could be and most likely are trolls who've studied and learned their craft from WoV's forum and then brought their anonymous armchair stories over to here, where they thought they'd run into a team of gullibles. I've seen NOTHING to suggest they're not as phony as a three dollar bill.

[jbjb]

The only phony here is you and your bogus system.

[jbjb]

I'd have Rob's shitty attitude too if I had to sleep with that disgusting thing he calls a wife :-)

[RS__]

And therein lies the reason why nobody believes anything written by self-proclaimed "AP's".

Anyone can sit at home, quote theory, claim there's "very lucrative ap plays out there" and at the same time say "but I won't tell you what they are or where", and then try their hardest to portray themselves as "making money doing it!"

These jokers could be anybody---people like mickeycrimm who spends all his time making things up and fantasizing about what a great life gambling theory could provide. These other guys could be and most likely are trolls who've studied and learned their craft from WoV's forum and then brought their anonymous armchair stories over to here, where they thought they'd run into a team of gullibles. I've seen NOTHING to suggest they're not as phony as a three dollar bill.

Keep dreamin'.

[RS__]

I'd have Rob's shitty attitude too if I had to sleep with that disgusting thing he calls a wife :-)

inb4 Alan says "that's off limits!" (even though he never gave much of a shit when Rob said things about arci's passed wife)


But I agree with you jb. Maybe that's why Rob made up all those stories about going to Laughlin or Las Vegas, using his made up system that "works" (lol). He was heading out of town to make money playing VP...he was getting out of town to avoid his wife.

[Alan Mendelson]

Not everyone wants to go to casinos to grind out a little profit, rating their visit by what they earn per hour. Many of us go for the thrill and entertainment that’s available. We want to leave working in the rear-view mirror when we go. Alan is also proof that punters could have single wins larger than your whole year of breaking your ass hustling.

Well said. Especially the part that we want to leave working in the rear-view mirror. My career and job comes first.