Tipping on hand pays at high limit VP

[Guy Incognito]

My normal game is $5 single-line VP, which makes tipping pretty straightforward - I do $10 on the straight flush, and $100 on the royal. Both of these combined probably happen 2-3 times a year.

But the other day I was playing .50 100-play, and after a few of hours of running hot, I had hit 10 handpays. I tipped on some, didn't tip on others (asked to be paid with a slot ticket), and in the end had tipped $100 total, which kind of seemed like a lot, in retrospect. If I expect to play this game regularly, that level of tipping would seriously cut into my EV.

I'm having trouble finding info on this anywhere else; can some of you VP whales chime in on what's expected/appropriate?

[RS__]

A few options, depending on the casino:

A] Key to credit, some places will just have a slot attendant key the machine, leave credits on the machine, and add up the JP amounts so that at the end of your session you get one big W2G. Then you can tip whatever you want to at the end. It also makes it quicker when you play because don't have to wait on getting hand pays.

B] Some places, like MGM and Cosmopolitan, have a system where you don't even need a slot attendant to key the machine. When you hit a JP, a thing shows up on screen, you type in your pin and whatnot, then the machine gets unlocked. They'll mail you a copy of W2G's, or you can pick them up at end of your session/day/trip.


Other than that, not really sure. Other than just tipping at the end of the session......or perhaps don't tip for small jackpots but tip larger for bigger JP's.

[Guy Incognito]

Wasn't aware of that; thanks for the info. This was actually at Cosmo, but they didn't offer that option; I guess you have to ask.

[Rob.Singer]

Why do you people like to believe you have to tip on ANY handpay or jackpot? It's amazing how drawn in you get to what other people say they do so you feel you have to do it too. Think for yourselves for God's sake. You play in a hi-limit room and you're not a complete master of everything you're doing or about to do in there??

Now we've got somebody starting a thread looking for a tipping "standard" while at the same time worrying to death about meaningless "EV" and then some amateur chiming in about hi-limit room policies he's heard about but, as deduced from further conversation he did not expect, we not surprisingly find he's never actually experienced. Then the OP actually "takes in" what some proven phony, anonymous poster has to say about it! Just astounding....

Tipping on handpays is for the weak. That's right--you people are WUSSIES if you tip someone who's not unlike any clerk in any store who's simply doing their job by taking care of their customers. And guess what--you whimpering pussies only tip handpays because you're so lacking in self-confidence that you're EASILY INTIMIDATED into forking over YOU'RE money to complete strangers because you've "heard" it was the right thing to do....of course, without explanation. And to then complain about how much EV you're giving up because of these stupid tips? Please, grow a pair.

[redietz]

I wish Rob would stick to telling people to not tip. He starts to make a point, then he throws in a non-rational, whackjob phrase like "meaningless 'EV'."

The problem, as I have pointed out umpteen times, is that Rob never delineates what minimum EV is necessary for his various systems and mousetraps to win. He just makes a blanket statement about EV being meaningless, which is clearly nonsensical.

After 5000 posts, one would think Rob would occasionally say something like, "Well, at 97.4, my hokum doesn't really work, but it does at 97.8 EV." But Rob's too savvy to get pinned down like that. He just goes with the "meaningless EV" comments, which undermine whatever credibility he might have on other topics.

He has some valid points about tipping. The people one doesn't tip aren't your bodyguards. Nothing bad will happen to you if you don't tip. It's not required. The whole social pressure to tip is not a law of nature. If you skip tipping, the world will not end.

[jbjb]

There's only one reason why Rob doesn't want you to tip and to play the games sub-optimally while betting higher while losing. He actually wants you to lose your money to the casino!!

[bocce ball]

Why do you people like to believe you have to tip on ANY handpay or jackpot?

Please, grow a pair.

Rob is excellent on this subject.

I think there are probably more non-tippers than we realize, so if I stiff the attendants, they'll only hate me for a few minutes until the next customer disappoints them.

But I like the idea of minimizing cash received from attendants at your machine. It's better to accept payment in the form of a ticket or credits because psychologically, you don't look so much like a big winner.

[Rob.Singer]

I wish Rob would stick to telling people to not tip. He starts to make a point, then he throws in a non-rational, whackjob phrase like "meaningless 'EV'."

The problem, as I have pointed out umpteen times, is that Rob never delineates what minimum EV is necessary for his various systems and mousetraps to win. He just makes a blanket statement about EV being meaningless, which is clearly nonsensical.

After 5000 posts, one would think Rob would occasionally say something like, "Well, at 97.4, my hokum doesn't really work, but it does at 97.8 EV." But Rob's too savvy to get pinned down like that. He just goes with the "meaningless EV" comments, which undermine whatever credibility he might have on other topics.

He has some valid points about tipping. The people one doesn't tip aren't your bodyguards. Nothing bad will happen to you if you don't tip. It's not required. The whole social pressure to tip is not a law of nature. If you skip tipping, the world will not end.

You're again making up what I say or believe in, just to criticize. The point about EV being meaningless is because a percent or two going in has little to no bearing on any individual session, and if you're educated enuf on how to perfect the art of just getting up and leaving with a profit, then all that EV theory does is get in the way.

I've written multiple articles over the years about how hypocritical it is, esp. for so-called "AP's", to claim on the one hand to squeeze every bit of edge out of their VP play--only to forfeit some of it by being weak enuf to give it away to floor people. Makes no sense at all, and I'm sure you agree. And just about everyone would....except for the fact that they can't help themselves but tip, whether or not they realize they're only doing such a foolish thing at the time because they know how intimidated they get from angry stares, or they don't want to believe they're being manipulated (via the vision of all that cash) by people who are labeling them as SUCKERS behind their backs as shifts start.

[RS__]

Wasn't aware of that; thanks for the info. This was actually at Cosmo, but they didn't offer that option; I guess you have to ask.

It's called Fast Pay. You have to sign up for it with a slot attendant. It might only be available in the high limit room, but not certain.

[redietz]

You're again making up what I say or believe in, just to criticize. The point about EV being meaningless is because a percent or two going in has little to no bearing on any individual session, and if you're educated enuf on how to perfect the art of just getting up and leaving with a profit, then all that EV theory does is get in the way.

I've written multiple articles over the years about how hypocritical it is, esp. for so-called "AP's", to claim on the one hand to squeeze every bit of edge out of their VP play--only to forfeit some of it by being weak enuf to give it away to floor people. Makes no sense at all, and I'm sure you agree. And just about everyone would....except for the fact that they can't help themselves but tip, whether or not they realize they're only doing such a foolish thing at the time because they know how intimidated they get from angry stares, or they don't want to believe they're being manipulated (via the vision of all that cash) by people who are labeling them as SUCKERS behind their backs as shifts start.

1) For the most part, I agree with your tipping attitudes.
2) EV theory does not "get in the way." That's nonsense. It certainly doesn't get in the way for casinos.
3) It does not really make sense to sweat a tenth of a percent or two in EV and then tip, unless you are (A)on a tremendously positive machine and floor people will fast track you to payouts and W2Gs or (B) you rely on floor personnel for inside info on machines and upcoming promotions. In those cases, tipping makes sense, although it's more like bribing than tipping. In his early days, Dancer did a lot of that.

[Rob.Singer]

I agree that EV theory does not ever "get in the way" for the casinos. They live, eat & breathe the long term. But when it comes to a player who walks in and plays a VP machine or any other game really, that all-sacred EV truly has no distinct bearing on whether the player wins or loses the session--esp. if said player is skilled and disciplined enough to know how to leave with some type of profit.

Remember, most sessions of VP have at least one profit point within them, regardless of the EV going in. In my playing life, if I had expected to lose every time I faced off against a -EV game, I'd have never started. As such, because of my play strategy, discipline, and disregard for EV, I've won about 85% of my sessions since dropping the ap label.

[jbjb]

You could have 99% win rate and still lose money. Conversely, you could have a 1% win rate and be profitable.

[redietz]

Exactly. Having an 85% "session win rate" is the video poker equivalent of claiming to win 60% of your games while betting major league baseball moneylines. It doesn't mean anything. It's irrelevant. What matters is net profit, not how many games -- or sessions -- one wins.

[coach belly]

There's only one reason why Rob doesn't want you to tip...He actually wants you to lose your money to the casino!!

What are you saying here...that tipping affects whether or not you win or lose?

I've read some sound reasons why not to tip on handpays, but I haven't read why you should tip on handpays.

Is there any sensible reason why you should tip on handpays?

[coach belly]

My normal game is $5 single-line VP...But the other day I was playing .50 100-play

You normally play $25 per hand VP, but the other day you played $250 per hand?

Is my math correct?

[jbjb]

What are you saying here...that tipping affects whether or not you win or lose?

I've read some sound reasons why not to tip on handpays, but I haven't read why you should tip on handpays.

Is there any sensible reason why you should tip on handpays?

I didn't say you should or shouldn't. I wouldn't chastise you either way.

[jbjb]

You normally play $25 per hand VP, but the other day you played $250 per hand?

Is my math correct?

Maybe he's the guy who hit the $400,000 AWAK at Cosmo on the $1 100 play.

[coach belly]

I didn't say you should or shouldn't.

You didn't say one way or the other, but you wrote this...

There's only one reason why Rob doesn't want you to tip...He actually wants you to lose your money to the casino!!

...and I'm wondering about your conclusion...that the reason Rob doesn't want us to tip is because he wants us to lose.

Can you explain what you mean?

[mickeycrimm]

...and I'm wondering about your conclusion...that the reason Rob doesn't want us to tip is because he wants us to lose. Can you explain what you mean?

You parsed jbjb's statement leaving out this part right here "and to play the game sub-optimally while betting more while losing."

[mickeycrimm]

Jean Scott tips $20 on a $4000 royal. Bob Dancer tips $20 on a $20,000 royal. He only tips $5 on quad handpays. He has the tip expectation calculated into his EV on the play.