Tipping on hand pays at high limit VP

[Dan Druff]

A lot of professional blackjack players don't tip. I suspect it's because they are working to thin of an edge to tip the money off.

There's that, and the dealers often get too used to large tips on large wins, so they get nasty with you (or are just quietly rude) if you don't tip them "enough".

I used to tip the dealer $5 every so often. This wasn't for any +EV purpose. It's a myth that dealers increase penetration when you tip them. It's also a myth that they report you for card counting if you don't tip. But I felt that these dealers depended upon tips for a living, so I didn't want to stiff them.

However, I would have a $300 hand which splits and then doubles, and it would all win for $900. So I'd throw the dealer $5, and they would look at me like I'm the biggest asshole in the world.

I noticed that the recreational players were tipping $25 minimum in these spots, and I realized that my tips were being taken more as an insult than something nice.

So I just stopped tipping altogether at BJ.

Then I read that the dealers at the high end properties where I mostly played were making $90-$100k per year anyway, and I felt a lot less bad about stopping tipping anyway.

[jbjb]

The best way for a card counter to tip, is to make small bets the dealer in a high plus count. Don't outright give them money.

[redietz]

"Tip creep" has hit the race and sports books, also. I tend to agree with Rob Singer on this, and I am just not going to tip, no matter the payout. Thirty years ago, sports ticket writers were rarely tipped. Now the tourist-weekend-warriors in Las Vegas tend to tip ticket writers fairly frequently. There is no way I am turning an 11-10 scenario into something more like 6-5. And on the occasions one is able to negotiate -105, it makes no sense to tip and partially negate the work you did to get the -105.

To put this in the overall service context, I do not need a human ticket writer. He or she is extraneous to the wagering, which can often be done at a kiosk or with an app.

[RS__]

It's the casino that wants me back gambling as soon as possible. I'm expected to lose money in the long run and the faster I get back to pushing that button, the faster I'm going to lose it back. I'm not an AP and would probably use the hand pay as a natural break in my play anyway, so they can take their time.

I tip in restaurants mainly because I worked part time in a restaurant in college and I have a soft spot for what they do. I tip the valet because any time I see a guy sprinting across the pavement in the Vegas heat to pick up my car, I feel he deserves a couple of bucks. The cocktail waitress because it can be a long dry spell if you don't tip.

Where do you draw the line in tipping? The front desk clerk who checks you in? The person that takes away your drink and empties your ashtray? Slot tech? Cashier cage? Guy that cleans the bathroom?

I'm not in a casino to impress anyone, make friends with anyone, or to share my good fortune with anyone (unless they are willing to share my losses). The casino has one goal, to remove as much money from my wallet as possible. I want to minimize that leakage as much as possible, and I haven't found a reason to tip any of the floor people that want to come out and congratulate me on my hand pay. They sure don't come around when I'm losing.

To go back to the original question, if you think you are tipping too much, then you are tipping too much.

Fair enough. But the "I don't tip people who are just doing their job" argument doesn't stand.

[Count Room]

(I posted this exact same text on the Rob Singer tipping thread. Maybe it's more appropriate here?)

Re: Tipping on W2G wins

The point is well taken on not tipping W2G payouts, but my biggest fear is giving out my Social Security number to an attendant who might think I am an asshole for not tipping and s/he happens to know all sorts of nefarious things that can be done with a SSN.

[james40]

Fair enough. But the "I don't tip people who are just doing their job" argument doesn't stand.

Do you tip the DMV clerk? How about the clerk that rings you up at a department store? Or your garbage person, do you run out and give them a tip? Why does the suit and one clerk that walk out for a hand pay qualify for a cut of your winnings?

There has to be a reasonable cutoff point, everyone in Vegas has their hand out now, and I think you have to be somewhat selective on who you share your money with. After all, it is your money, you have zero responsibility to any of the casino employees and finally, the goal is to beat the casino. Don't tip the blackjack dealer and I guarantee the same cards are going to come up on the next deal.

[mickeycrimm]

This bartender and I just couldn't get along. I didn't care much for him and he didn't care much for me. He finally told me to finish my drink and leave. A swamper was emptying a garbage can not to far away. "No problem" I said "But I always tip for good service." The bartender looked at me. I pulled out a $100 bill and handed it to the swamper. "Great job, my man" I said to the swamper then headed for the door. The reaction it got from the bartender, who called me all kinds of sons-of-bitches as I was making my exit, was worth the money.

[Dan Druff]

(I posted this exact same text on the Rob Singer tipping thread. Maybe it's more appropriate here?)

Re: Tipping on W2G wins

The point is well taken on not tipping W2G payouts, but my biggest fear is giving out my Social Security number to an attendant who might think I am an asshole for not tipping and s/he happens to know all sorts of nefarious things that can be done with a SSN.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. They run into lots of non-tippers every day (including people who don't realize they are expected to tip), so this is unlikely to happen to you.

Almost all SSN fraud is done by career scammers. There is very little SSN fraud committed for vindictive purposes.

[Dan Druff]

The best way for a card counter to tip, is to make small bets the dealer in a high plus count. Don't outright give them money.

The dealer doesn't determine the penetration in most cases nowadays. In fact, they haven't in most casinos for at least 15 years.

When I did find casinos where the dealers choose penetration, I noticed that tipping almost never had any effect on it -- either positive or negative. And of course, tipping too much to get better penetration is -EV anyway.

At Casino Royale circa 2004, I did run into a dealer who knew I was counting and was telling me "one more hand" when the count was good and the remaining cards were few. Back then, this was one of the few casinos where dealers DID determine penetration, and they didn't even use a red/yellow card to mark it! They would just shuffle when they felt the time was right. So this guy would deal down really deep when the count was high (which he obviously knew because I raised my bets). Well, this was very valuable, so this was one of the few dealers I tipped well. However, I should note that I started tipping him well AFTER he was doing this for me -- basically a message to him of, "I like what you're doing! Continue!"

[RS__]

Do you tip the DMV clerk? How about the clerk that rings you up at a department store? Or your garbage person, do you run out and give them a tip? Why does the suit and one clerk that walk out for a hand pay qualify for a cut of your winnings?

There has to be a reasonable cutoff point, everyone in Vegas has their hand out now, and I think you have to be somewhat selective on who you share your money with. After all, it is your money, you have zero responsibility to any of the casino employees and finally, the goal is to beat the casino. Don't tip the blackjack dealer and I guarantee the same cards are going to come up on the next deal.

I agree. I'm just saying don't use the "Why would I tip someone for just doing their job?" argument if you do tip waiters, cocktail waitresses, valet, etc. [Now that I think of it, not sure if it was you or someone else who mentioned that, I think it may have been someone else.]

[Alan Mendelson]

One thing you have to remember is that when you tip, it is likely that tip is going to be divided up a hundred way or even 400 ways if you are at a mega resort like Caesars Palace.

Only in very small casinos is there a likelihood that the tip will stay with the dealers at the game or with a particular dealer.

When I found out that the tipping pool for slot/video-poker floor people was very small (about 20), I lowered the amount I tipped on W2Gs. That's because the tips at the table games are divided up about 400 ways.

[Guy Incognito]

I've never heard of this before. Do any Caesars properties do this? How do you get it? You just ask the slot attendant?

Played at a CET property a few days ago, and I can confirm that they will do this. It's called "Ecash mode". A supervisor keys the machine, and I was allowed to keep playing and sign for the jackpots at the end.

[coach belly]

Played at a CET property a few days ago, and I can confirm that they will do this. It's called "Ecash mode". A supervisor keys the machine, and I was allowed to keep playing and sign for the jackpots at the end.

Does this mean that handpays are not required?...only that W2Gs are required?

[Alan Mendelson]

Does this mean that handpays are not required?...only that W2Gs are required?

W2Gs are always required, but you have the option are signing one big W2G at the end of your session, or signing for them as they come.

I am not sure about handpays. I've seen handpays made in two ways: by actual cash and by ticket. I have never seen anyone just have the credits remain on the machine.

But keep in mind that at some casinos, machines will have a maximum number of credits allowed and anything above that maximum number will cause the machine to spit out a ticket for the excess. I've never seen that happen in Vegas, but I've seen in at casinos in California.

[Dan Druff]

I'm totally doing this "ecash mode" next time I play.

I despise handpays with a passion, both because it freezes the game and because I'm expected to tip.

Also could "ecash mode" possibly avoid a W2-G if you lose after hitting your big hand?

For example, let's say I am playing $1/credit and hit four aces with 2-3-4 in DDB, getting me $2000.

Normally that would require a handpay.

But if I'm in e-cash mode and then proceed to lose $900, and quit with $1100 in the machine, would I get a W2-G? Or would I not get one because I finished with less than the required $1200?

[Guy Incognito]

Right, I was able to get the jackpots credited to the machine, so no handpays. Sped up the game considerably. I've had the machine spit out tickets for excess (in Cherokee, not in LV). Not sure if that's dependent on the machine itself or the jurisdiction.

Dan, I don't think ecash mode lets you avoid w-2gs in that scenario. They write them down on a sheet of paper as you hit them, and you sign/initial each one at the end.

[RS__]

It wouldn't avoid the W2G.