The value of "proof"

[Alan Mendelson]

Kewlj I really have no interest in continuing a discussion with you. You have made claims of having an extraordinary ability and you won't back it up. Have a nice life.

[jbjb]

Although I haven’t had much interaction with Dan, he too seems like a reasonable person (except for his decision to allow certain members that will forever dictate and limit what this site can be).

I dont know if you know this as I know you aren't into live poker much, if at all, but Dan is poker pro Todd Witteles.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Witteles

[kewlJ]

I don't know what the maximum is. I've done it with 1 and 2 players before, and they were playing slowly. I wouldn't try to do it with 5 on the other table. Ideally, you want to wong in with few players so you get more rounds in before end of shoe. If you wong in with 4 others, you'll get far less rounds than with 1 other player.

No idea what you're asking in paragraph 2.

#3, most shoes don't go positive. The number of players at a table doesn't make a shoe more likely or less likely to go positive. Like paragraph 2, this question doesn't make sense either.

1-3 people is generally what I am dealing with. Full table naturally makes it more difficult. When I first made the comment (which I had no idea would turn out this controversial, because it is not a new technique), I said "that I try to track multiple tables when I can". That is just another thing that Alan chose to overlook. I also clearly stated that there is one seat at each table (seat 4 at a table to your right and seat 2 at a table to the left that has the potential to block your view of cards. Often if someone is in those seats, I don't both even attempting, although occasionally, just a small shift, still allows a clear sightline. Again, Alan chose to ignore that.

I also clearly said I don't bother with a table that is almost full, because I don't want to go to the trouble of tracking a second table only to have someone jump into the last open seat just as the table becomes ripe. Luckily those critical seats (2 and 4) are generally the least popular seats. Many people have a preference of third base or first base, including card counters for a whole list of reasons. And people that don't have a preference, usually just pick the middle. Seats 2 and 4 are usually the last to fill in.

I am curious about your comment that "most shoes don't go positive". I have never heard that, nor can figure why that would be the case? If you are saying most shoes don't go significantly positive...yes, I get that. But just positive...as in a running count of +1, that should occur about 50%, no?

[kewlJ]

Kewlj I really have no interest in continuing a discussion with you. You have made claims of having an extraordinary ability and you won't back it up. Have a nice life.

I have not made claims of extraordinary ability....that's the thing. Many card counters engage in tracking multiple tables.....when they have the opportunity. Nothing new. Nothing all that unique.

But I more than concur....I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you and in all probability any discussion as since I have been here, you have proven to mostly be interested in creating some kind of "gottacha moment" or trap, based on your anti-AP bias.

[Alan Mendelson]

There Ya go again.... claiming I'm biased against APs. Got something better to throw back at me? I gave you a chance to show me AP-table spotting.

[jbjb]

I don't think Alan is biased. After all, he does believe in DI.

[kewlJ]

Although I haven’t had much interaction with Dan, he too seems like a reasonable person (except for his decision to allow certain members that will forever dictate and limit what this site can be).

I dont know if you know this as I know you aren't into live poker much, if at all, but Dan is poker pro Todd Witteles.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Witteles

Yes, I read that when Dan first posted after the WSoP.

I know zero about nor play poker. I am wondering if a poker player, specifically a professional poker player is considered an AP? Obviously he would be applying any advantage against other players rather than the casino.

I don't know if I have told the story here, of my former roommate "professional" poker player. I moved to Vegas in late 2009 and met him early 2010, as I saw him frequently at a couple of the snack bar type outlets at Rio and on the strip. He was about my age (mid 20's), so one day we struck up conversation and he told me he played poker for a living. Turns out his idea of "for a living" was a bit different than mine. He scored some comped room 2-3 weekday nights at the lower end Evil Empire properties like imperial palace (at the time) or Bally's. The other nights he slept in his car. he also earned enough comps for food at the snack bars.

So I saw him one day in February, when we were experiencing a bit of a cold spell (for Vegas), going down below freezing at night, so I told him he could crash at my condo on the sofa for a couple days. That lasted 7 years....through 3 moves, into my current house, until this past spring, when he finally moved out.

During that 7 years, he rarely had much money. Always waiting for his next big score and always coming off one of those "bad beats" that poker players like to talk about. Occasionally when he went bust, he would work some sort of job for a few weeks or a month. He worked the zip line downtown. He worked the gondola boats at Venetian. He worked the haunted house at Circus Circus.

Definitely not my idea of a professional poker player, or a professional anything.

And I certainly am not implying anything about Dan with this story. I know Dan is a legitimate successful professional poker player.

edit: Oh I almost forgot...my professional poker player of a roommate also sold bottled water on the strip one summer. Actually he made more than $100/day most days.

[Alan Mendelson]

I believe DI is possible but I only know three who I would consider true DIs.

I also believe it doesn't hurt to try DI, just as it doesn't hurt to try card counting if you're not proficient.

[jbjb]

I believe DI is possible but I only know three who I would consider true DIs.

I also believe it doesn't hurt to try DI, just as it doesn't hurt to try card counting if you're not proficient.

It does hurt because you'll have confidence in something you aren't good at. Why do you think poker pros want tables full of fish? It's those fish, who think they're good but really aren't, that subsidize the sharks. Another one is why MGM studios, and YES they stl have an interest in the casinos, helped finance the movie "21." Because they wanted the amateurs with just a bit of knowledge to come in and loser their shirts.

[Alan Mendelson]

Then jbjb anyone who isn't an expert should not play? I guess if that's how you earn a living you shouldn't play unless you're an expert. But I and others are not earning a living playing and we play for entertainment. So we try to influence dice, we try to count cards, we try to use the best strategy at video poker. And then we have our jobs and our lives outside of casinos.

[mickeycrimm]

Alan, you sure want to go through a big elaborate production of setting up a couple of tables of blackjack to prove kewlj wrong. That would be a lot of work. But you can't even open a package for redeitz? Thats no work at all. Very peculiar.

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan, you sure want to go through a big elaborate production of setting up a couple of tables of blackjack to prove kewlj wrong. That would be a lot of work. But you can't even open a package for redeitz? Thats no work at all. Very peculiar.

You're right that it's no work to open the package... but I have to get to the office to open the package.

Setting up this test at a dealers school can be done with a phone call. If the school says okay then all I need is get the measurement of the tables including distance and angles which is not a problem. I'm in Vegas for business and to see my girlfriend on a regular basis. So if kewlj wants to show his stuff and when I find a school that will accept my offer of free advertising we can do this.

Right now I haven't even called a school because kewlj says no.

It appears I will be opening the package before kewlj proves his ability.

So mickeycrimm why don't you ask kewlj why he won't show us his skill?

[mickeycrimm]

I already know why kewlj will not placate you. Its his livlihood you dumbass. Alan, do you really think he is going to expose his identity to you and a bunch of future dealers? Alan, your elevator doesn't go to the top floor. Jeez, what an idiot.

[kewlJ]

Kewlj I really have no interest in continuing a discussion with you. You have made claims of having an extraordinary ability and you won't back it up. Have a nice life.

So if kewlj wants to show his stuff and when I find a school that will accept my offer of free advertising we can do this.
So mickeycrimm why don't you ask kewlj why he won't show us his skill?

You couldn't even keep your word for 5 hours.

[kewlJ]

Alan, you sure want to go through a big elaborate production of setting up a couple of tables of blackjack to prove kewlj wrong. That would be a lot of work. But you can't even open a package for redeitz? Thats no work at all. Very peculiar.

Is this guy for real? Or is this some sort of joke?

[Alan Mendelson]

I already know why kewlj will not placate you. Its his livlihood you dumbass. Alan, do you really think he is going to expose his identity to you and a bunch of future dealers? Alan, your elevator doesn't go to the top floor. Jeez, what an idiot.

Then why would he even come on this forum (which IS read by people in the industry) to tell us he can count at two tables? Why would RS__ also say he does it?

Anyone in the business who read this would immediately (if they thought it was a serious threat) talk about counter measures including spreading the tables further apart, or alerting personnel to twisting heads, or changing the angles of the tables.

Being anonymous does not prevent the casino industry from knowing that they have a chink in the armor.

No one really cares about kewlj. But they do care about a fault in their systems or set-up.

[Biloxi Bill]

You shouldn`t have edited...I thought you said it very well the first time....and absolutely true as well

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan, you sure want to go through a big elaborate production of setting up a couple of tables of blackjack to prove kewlj wrong. That would be a lot of work. But you can't even open a package for redeitz? Thats no work at all. Very peculiar.

Is this guy for real? Or is this some sort of joke?

As a TV producer, I think it would fascinating to have on TV. The public loves this kind of stuff -- abilities in casinos to win money.

[kewlJ]

You shouldn`t have edited...I thought you said it very well the first time....and absolutely true as well

Yeah, I can't be like that. If someone is agitating me to the point that I am feel the need to stoop to the level of the haters, then it's time for me to move along. This is NOT what I am about, nor why I can here to participate.

[Rob.Singer]

You shouldn`t have edited...I thought you said it very well the first time....and absolutely true as well

Yeah, I can't be like that. If someone is agitating me to the point that I am feel the need to stoop to the level of the haters, then it's time for me to move along. This is NOT what I am about, nor why I can here to participate.

You're so full of it kew. The only reason you showed up here was to spew your bj bs because wizard etc. put you in your place about all the baloney. Your constant rants of "waaa waaa I'm not gonna engage these people any more" and "look at me! look at me! I'm a PRO!!" expose your stupid, tired agenda. And no, we don't care to keep hearing about your gay "roommates" any more than you care to be reminded of your pre-choice days when being within five feet of a woman, terrified you.