Arc I too say there's nothing wrong with adapting. That's what life's about. The only point I was making is that Dancer, and I hate to sound like singer after reading that go-around with Alan, but Dancer didn't do what he preached. For a person who's basically selling videopoker to fans and wannabees, I'm saying what Singer said, that they deserved better, that's all.
If changes occur that cannot be foreseen then I don't see why any Dancer fans would hold him to statements he made before those changes occurred.Originally Posted by jatki
I can remember professional golfers that laughed at the big headed clubs and graphite shafts when they first appeared. many of them said they wouldn't be caught dead using them. Of course, once they actually saw what kind of difference those clubs provided they all jumped on board. Did they disappoint their fans? I doubt it very much. They made an intelligent adaptation based on new information.
Singer just hates Dancer and will do anything to criticize him. I'm anything but a Dancer fan but I certainly understand making intelligent changes when conditions change.
If changes can occur that cannot be foreseen, you would think a professional would know that's possible in advance and not make such a statement. I don't see the link between the golf clubs and the specific fact that Dancer provided. If cb plus ev don't go over 100%, he will no longer play. That's pretty cut and dry. He knew at the time, being the experienced player he's been, that he could always add in other things to bolster his %. But he still made the statement, and Singer dinged him for it. I don't see any hate involved. In fact, good for him.
What Dancer was likely saying is he wouldn't play a game that was under 100% as a total return. He used the items that were available at that time in the discussion. When additional items became available that would take a play over 100% he simply included those in his decision making process. This is not rocket science.Originally Posted by jatki
Trying to infer he changed his way of thinking is beyond silly. And, anyone doing that is motivated by something other than logic and common sense.
You see arc, it's statements like these that give me the impression that you are really a troll at heart, and I did look it up. Back when Dancer made that statement and much before it, comps were available, gifts were available, tournaments were available. Even free trips were much more available. But I do see your strategy here. You will keep developing scenarios through your spin factory that make you think you've convinced me that Singer was wrong, only the history is already written on that and he was right.
I see you got up very early for this today. Get some rest.
It doesn't matter if these things were available, only if they were available where reasonable plays existed. When 2% plays were all around town there was no need to look into any of those things. Good grief.
You really are quite logic impaired, aren't yo.
Yo, arc! How about listening. BD knew what was available and didn't need anything but cb to claim a 100%+ play, especially with all the +games available back then. That's why he proclaimed he wouldn't play any longer if that cb + ev = >100% scenario ever ceased to exist. Simple, right? Then, because his sacred games and or cb went south, he went back on his word and started adding in all those other things to develop a + play, just so he didn't have to stop playing. As Singer put it, he just couldn't stop by then, because he got bit by the vp bug. Get it?
Now get some rest.
So, the dude that can't read with any comprehension skills at all knew exactly what Dancer was thinking when he made that statement. You are really a ball of laughs. Sorry, but there's plenty of room for interpretation and I suspect I'm a lot closer than you. But hey, why don't you ask Bob, then neither one of us will have to guess.
You didn't get your rest.
Dancer said what he would do, and he was already aware that he could have added in all the other items but he chose to say he wouldn't. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. I expect when you get your rest you might finally understand this.
So, you're afraid to ask Bob himself. Why am I not surprised. You would rather spread rumor and innuendo than get the facts. It does fit with everything else you've said since you got here.
That doesn't follow your so called logic arc. Singer's the one who wote the article and I happen to agree with him. It this universe, if someone agrees with something they have no need to do anything further unless they want to contact the author and pat him on the back (which isn't a bad idea by the way). Rather, it's the ones who disagree that need to do whatever they want or can so they won't keep waking up in a cold sweat over it.Originally Posted by arcimede$
Get that rest yet?
Singer may have originated it but now you are the one who is doing the analysis and making claims. Your unwillingness to get the facts means you are letting your own desires cloud the picture. It really says a lot about how you approach information.Originally Posted by jatki
I never saw the articles and I don't know what, if anything, Dancer said he would or would not do. But I would just llike to add this: Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation freeing the slaves, so no one in this country can be a slave to another person and no one should be shackled to an idea or thought. In my book it's okay to change your mind.
If Rob Singer is saying that Dancer cannot change his mind then Rob is wrong, just as wrong as when he said I couldn't change my mind. Conditions change, games change, people change, their finances change, their goals change, their motivations change, their lives change.
Heck, you want an example of change: Rob Singer himself has admitted going in and out of being on one trip a recreational player and then on another trip a practitioner of his own professional strategy. If Rob Singer can change his mind, the rest of us humble folks can change our minds.
It appears even when I leave, the "more than chatter" continues about me. Imagine what'll happen after I die. But this time, I wasn't looking until one of the active posters here contacted me and said the reading would be interesting.
First off Alan, there is no problem with us. I simply came apart as your told your story of weakness and of how you got so controlled by what I've always said was an enemy of the players: the casino....specifically, VP this time. I'd say we should forget about it. You know my position and I think I know yours. I can only help those who recognize a problem and want my help. You don't think you have one. So be it.
As for the Dancer thing I've been reading about: jatki's got it pretty well defined from my end--he told it straight on. But that thing you said about how it's OK that he changed his mind--presumably in a changing world. Well, I agree, but that was never the point and I'm surprised you missed it. What I outed him on was how he said he would NEVER incorporate anything BUT cashback into the EV formula, and he even listed all the other available "freebies" at the time that he vowed he'd never use, and cash gifts/bounceback cash were part of that...or else he would stop playing. Although jatki didn't have it explained perfectly, as he said, it is pretty cut & dry.
I saw the part about Frank. Alan, you met with him once or twice and I met with him twice. You probably know I BEGGED HIM to sit with me at machines so he could learn everything about my play strategy (BTW, SPS is actually Singer Play Strategy in the context of how we've been identifying it here - but it is originally Single Play Strategy, noted as such as my four other play strategies came out of the development mill). You of course are correct about how he either got caught up in something else or just didn't have the time to do it. On a side note, I have to thank arci for once again showing how much I influence his life on the Internet, as he radiated his eventual fizzled-out hope that there was a spec of truth to his "Frank canned it" theory. That wasn't even a good try for a student on the Mr. Wizard show, let alone a "tested genius"
Then there's the discussion about my average bet during my SPS. Jatki has some good points, Alan remembers what I told him well, and alas, arci just can't get even the simplest of things right--even in the face of reading where someone else actually saw my W2G's in Gaming Today. What else can be said.
Alan, I hope I can clear this up for you here. My professional career had a start and a stop date. It was a job to me just like anyone else's. During that time, I ONLY played either SPS, RTT (romp-thru-town), ARTT (advanced romp-thru-town), Five-Play, or Multi-Strike strategies. Those are what I developed to play when I played for profit professionally. Nothing else. Just like these days, when I no longer play ANY of those and only teach them, because I now play like any other recreational player. I no longer keep the required bankroll around to play those strategies. The comparatively few trips I wrote about for my book or when my wife and I drove from Phoenix to the Oregon coast for vacation (which we did every year) and the three 10,000 mile around-the-country & Canada drives we did where I always hit every Harrahs property in the country for the free rooms and food, when I chose to play, even though I was in the middle of my professional career, I never played long and I sat at bars to watch games or just to relax and play a little. Pros do take breaks mid-season, and this pro chose not to bore my wife with what could have been long hours of me sitting at machines during my and HER vacation. Now does that make sense finally?
Oh yes, while we're on that subject, why discuss videopoker.com here? That's always been the leading site for video poker hacks, arci has always put on the same show there as he does here, and whatever his claims are about me being the poster initialed BS instead of the revered RS over there, he's only doing it because that fellow must have embarrassed poor arci about something. And what does he do whenever he gets agitated with someone else? Yup, he claims it's me in disguise, he waits for his little clique of broken down old vp losers to come on in support, then he piles up the lies just as he does here. I haven't read anything there for many months, and I won't go there anytime in the foreseeable future. I saw here where Dancer says arci's lying about it, and Thor doesn't believe him either (that's the admin., who BTW is less than half his age and displays far more intelligence--perhaps because he's not a stay-at-home lover out of the punch card era?). But arci does have lots of time on his hand to build conspiracy theories....Oops, I won't bring that up!
Finally folks, I see interest is alive and well about understanding my SPS. That's encouraging, but even though I AM retired with what a lot of people might think is a ton of down time on my hands, it's not gonna be like that by any stretch until I return to Nv. for the Gaming Expo in early Oct. Shortly after that, I MAY find time to write up a very specifically detailed definition, but remember, to truly comprehend all of it you MUST sit with me at the machines for multiple lessons.
Last edited by Rob.Singer; 08-08-2012 at 11:58 PM.
I wanted to relate this when I first came on, but I quickly found out that whenever arc gets challenged he takes it as a personal attack against his credibility, then calls people names you'd only hear in a computer sciences classroom. But now, after seeing how much he has Singer on the brain, it doesn't matter, I'll go through it anyway. He won't like it and too bad, but it might be informative to others here.
I did meet with Singer, about 4 to 5 years ago. How could anybody not want to meet with him after some of the stuff he put up on LV A sports? Anybody here remember thase golden days? It was classic. He did pretty damn good on the sportsbetting too. It was for discussions about playing and a lesson. He was decent enough to spend the better part of four hours with me, yes four hours , starting out at Sam's Town where I had to wait for him to get out of the movie theater, and finishing up in the high limit room at the Palms. He said he had earlier finished up playing one of his sessions there, having won something like $4000, and that he generally left for home right after them except for my request was urgent because we tried to hook up once before in Reno and I called to cancel at the last minute because of personal problems. He graciously understood, and although he can be a tough customer, aka dickh*** to some on the forums, he's really not like that at all.
That's why I know a lot about his strategy, but not everything and there's a lot I still have questions on, and Alan's right, those special plays are a study in confusion. Use them here, don't use them there, sometimes, and they change as the game he plays changes. When you leave a training by him you leave with your head going in all directions inside. You also feel kind of stupid because he's a real genius of the game. In my session he set me a win goal of $200 and I left with $310, thanks to some luck on the $2 ddbp game, my denomination limit, at the Palms. And you know what, he also answers questions whether by email or by phone because he gives you his cell! Who else does these things for other players? I'm glad I thought of this too. Our local skeptic has said in various places that Singer cons us student/players in training sessions because he makes us use his players cards. Just another fudge up by arc, because he never even suggested that with me. He even told me up front that he wanted no pay of any kind for his help. The moment he said that I knew I was not with the fraud his critics tried to paint him to be.
Rob, welcome back. I have no dispute with you, and I know you don't have a dispute with me. But you can be wrong. You can also put in a zinger even when you say you are wrong:
"I can only help those who recognize a problem and want my help. You don't think you have one. So be it."
You really can't quit, can you? LOL
And I still think that if Dancer sees a reason to change his rules, it's still okay. After all, the casino industry has changed. Comps and cashback are not what they were. Even paytables are not what they were. So why not adapt to the changes? There are still people who will play video poker with less than "perfect" conditions and Dancer is no different. And if his "lesson" is how to adapt to current conditions then let him teach it and let him practice what he preaches.
But if you want to hold his feet to the fire over this issue, then go ahead. I think it's a "little issue" that doesn't mean anything. And of all the things that are important to casinogoers this is probably the least important thing out there. Heck, your arguments about non-random machines are more important and if you have time and energy pursue that, and not whether or not Dancer changed his formula for playing.
Now regarding you playing as a professional and then playing as a recreational player: okay, I can respect that. But at the same time, and by the same token, you should respect people who never attempted to play professionally. I'm one of those people. Don't hold me to your standard because that is rude and disrespectful and obnoxious. But let's bury the past.
Frank was a disappointment. Has something happened to him? I don't see his name anywhere recently. I would hate to think he ran into some trouble. He was a well meaning guy when I met with him and talked with him over lunch. He meant no harm to anyone. Unfortunately he never gave you a chance to show him what your system was all about -- and everyone lost out. That doesn't mean that Frank would have agreed with you, but the fact is he never gave you or himself a chance to understand your system. So the bottom line has not changed: your system has not been tested and probably can never be tested.
And about videopoker.com: I was actually honored that someone on that site followed the videos we did and the discussion here and brought it over there for discussion. If what was presented here was of no value it wouldn't have been mentioned there. The fact that it was mentioned there and discussed should be viewed as a sign of respect for what you presented and what was presented here.
Well, everything is falling in place. It turns out jatki idolizes Singer. Of course, when I made it obvious Singer is as phoney as a 3 dollar bill this got jatki upset. I mean he must feel like a complete idiot to have fallen for Singer's charm and totally missed all the BS. So, how does he recover his self-esteem? You got it, he comes on here and attacks me with nothing but lies and worthless claims.
Of course, he got his you know what handed to him. So, it now appears he sent Singer an email to come and rescue him. Bwah haha haha haha. Absolutely hilarious. And, Singer simply repeats all his standard lies and hopes everyone has forgot all the evidence already provided. Even funnier.
Don't you just love it when you see a couple of clowns running around and providing so much entertainment. Alan, you could start advertising this forum as a circus. All you need is a couple of trained animals.
At long last, I can now see why Singer enjoys as he put it, chipping away at arc's cool. He plays him, not like a fiddle, but as a pin ball, poking him into whatever pocket he so chooses, when he chooses. Then the best part, watching arc come out of there wiping egg off his reddened face. Yes, that is COOL!
Too late, jatki. You've been completely outed. Turn out the lights, the parties over. The fat lady has packed her bags and is moving to the next gig. Go back and hug your Singer doll ... it's all you have left.
As a side note... "three dollar bills" were printed by several banks prior to the U. S. Civil War... which is a period of time when private banks were allowed and did print currency.Originally Posted by arcimede$
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