El Cortez automatic shuffle machine cheating

[mickeycrimm]

Find someone else to troll.

Hey Nancy...stop calling me out and I won't respond to you.

Fuck you, bitch. Get back to where you belong. Rob's little dick in your mouth and his hairy balls on your chin. Unless he's packing you up the ass. Which one do you like better? I'll bet it's Rob's smelly balls on your chin. Or when he shits on your chest and you lick it up.

[kewlJ]

STOP.

If so, there's nothing else to say.




DID DAN JUST OFFER TO PROVE OR DISPROVE THE EC BJ CHEATING CLAIMS
And keep KJ' s identity a secret?

You seem to be under the misconception that I am going to prove something to you. Have you completely adopted Singer/Alan's position?

Let's review my role in this. I discovered something...an action by a casino that was detrimental to me personally. Easy remedy....I stopped playing that game. And I could (maybe should) have let it go at that. But I found it somewhat disturbing beyond that and wanted to warn other players, both card counter AP's and regular unsuspecting players. To do that I had to raise these accusations and I wouldn't do that to the casino involved without first being convinced myself beyond a reasonable doubt.

So I began recording data, several times a week for months. Almost 180 shoes worth of data. And here is the important part of the data. Almost 94% of these shoes registered a TC of either +4 or -4 somewhere during the shoe. This is a by product of 10 value card clumping. Whether that TC is negative or positive depends on just where in the shoe the high card clump is.

So how does this 94% stack up to normal random distribution? In reference to this discussion, noted blackjack mathematician and expert Don Schlesinger stated that under normal random circumstance a player should see a TC of +4 or -4, 25% of the time for a double deck game dealt to 75% penetration. Well the El Cortez game isn't even dealt that deeply, so that 25% should probably be more like 20%, maybe even less.....and it was actually 94%! That is 5 times normal expectation!

Now even at months of collecting this data, this is a small sample size. Definitive proof of nothing. But enough that I felt justified in making this accusation and warning other players. And enough to pursue it further, which I did. Once I satisfied myself that this was occurring, I wanted to prove to myself beyond any reasonable doubt. So I acquired the machine and model in question, at substantial effort and expense. And low and behold, the machine acquired from halfway around the world did exactly what I was saying. Making these possible but supposedly rare alterations to the machine's coding look not all that rare.

Now I didn't go to this expense and effort to prove this to you or anyone else on these message board forums. I warned players. And suggested they take a look at El Cortez for themselves. THAT was what I feel my obligation was. You, and other players and/or members of different sites can choose to heed that warning and take a look for yourself or not. Actually, the two machines in question at EC have been taken off the floor as of 5 days ago, so you don't really have the option to take a look for yourselves.....UNTIL NEXT TIME! And sadly, there will be a next time! Casino greed and availability of the technology guarantees that.

Now I don't know where this case is going from here. There are several issues resulting from my decision to even post about this. Like that the machines have been taken off the floor and currently the 7 day window for requesting video almost gone. The machine I acquired to prove the point is apparently not admissible in court, nor a Gaming hearing as there are "issues" with even having such equipment. AND, I am NOT interested in being the face of this complaint or challenge going forward. As an active player, I see no upside.

So I have warned players, who can take or not take that warning. I have brought the situation to the attention of others, including the appropriate attorney, who may or may not move forward with someone else as the face of this challenge. That is all I intend to do. I don't owe you or anyone else more than that.


I may be willing to meet with someone credible and who I trust, like Dan at some point, to demonstrate this piece of equipment's capabilities, of which I am still learning. But I would only do so if he agreed not to publicly talk about it, other than in very general terms, with no reference to me. And that time is not going to be right now. I have to let things cool down a bit.

AND I paid for the equipment, I want to learn what I can from it first. Selfish of me? Ok, maybe.

[Dan Druff]

Yes, I am offering to keep kewlJ's identity a secret if that's what he wants. And to keep whatever else quiet that he asks me not to reveal.

Since I have an actual background in embedded systems, I am particularly interested in this one. It's the perfect storm for me -- embedded systems, blackjack, and a cheating investigation!

Now, even if kewlJ proves he can duplicate the alleged behavior with the same device, that doesn't prove El Cortez did it. However, it DOES raise the suspicion level a lot, and it definitely would put the onus on Shufflemaster to modify their machines to where they can't be hacked to perform in this manner.

[kewlJ]

However, it DOES raise the suspicion level a lot, and it definitely would put the onus on Shufflemaster to modify their machines to where they can't be hacked to perform in this manner.

Shouldn't that onus have already been placed on shufflemaster or anyone else doing business with the casino industry? Integrity should be the top priority of this industry and all those that do this kind of business with it. IMO, the industry has started cutting corners on that foundation of integrity for a while now. If players really lose confident in the integrity of this industry and the ability to get an honest game, it will be the end of this industry. Protecting that integrity should have always been TOP priority, and it is clear that it no longer is.


I do want to make one clarification about the ASM's in question. This discussion is ONLY in reference to the newer mod4 ASM's. They have only been out for a couple years and only a few places use them. Most ASM's are an older version, Mod3 and most ASM in use are this older Mod3 version. I have never notice any kind of unusual distribution or clumping regarding these slightly older version. I actually always preferred playing the older Mod3 version ASM (less downtime = more money).

I am not a technically smart type of guy, so I have no idea what is different about this newer version that makes it more vulnerable.

[Dan Druff]

You guys have to understand. This is a public forum. Discussions start, people get invested in them, people participate....

... and then someone goes and deletes a lot of his posts, and the context is ruined for anyone trying to follow a bit later.

That's always been a pet peeve of mine.

I've had people want to leave my other forum (PokerFraudAlert), and they demand, "I want you to delete my posts here. I want no part of this forum anymore."

I refuse to do this. I tell them that deleting their (often thousands of) posts would break discussion topics and destroy the context of many threads.

Again, it is best to simply think before you post

If you really do need something removed for a specific and valid reason, PM me and I will be reasonable about it.

[Dan Druff]

I did make an exception regarding Alan and Jason because their situation was a personal one between father and son, and it really had no other bearing on anyone else here.

So while I did not remove any posts they made, I didn't restore the ones they deleted.

If kewlJ's father showed up here and argued with him, and then both deleted their posts, I would respect that as well.

[Dan Druff]

However, it DOES raise the suspicion level a lot, and it definitely would put the onus on Shufflemaster to modify their machines to where they can't be hacked to perform in this manner.

Shouldn't that onus have already been placed on shufflemaster or anyone else doing business with the casino industry? Integrity should be the top priority of this industry and all those that do this kind of business with it. IMO, the industry has started cutting corners on that foundation of integrity for a while now. If players really lose confident in the integrity of this industry and the ability to get an honest game, it will be the end of this industry. Protecting that integrity should have always been TOP priority, and it is clear that it no longer is.


I do want to make one clarification about the ASM's in question. This discussion is ONLY in reference to the newer mod4 ASM's. They have only been out for a couple years and only a few places use them. Most ASM's are an older version, Mod3 and most ASM in use are this older Mod3 version. I have never notice any kind of unusual distribution or clumping regarding these slightly older version. I actually always preferred playing the older Mod3 version ASM (less downtime = more money).

I am not a technically smart type of guy, so I have no idea what is different about this newer version that makes it more vulnerable.

I'm confused how you were able to modify a model 4 ASM to duplicate El Cortez's alleged cheating if you don't understand the technical concepts behind it.

Are there options on model 4 which simply let the user shuffle the deck as he pleases? If so, that's REALLY disturbing.

[kewlJ]

I didn't modify anything. I purchased a mod4 version, online from another country. I then entered a code that a local pit friend had supplied me with that would supposedly activate this clumping feature. The code was not accepted, because there is prior step needed before you can enter the code involving a PIN number. Apparently each casino or machine operator sets their own PIN number. Unfortunately by the manner that I acquired the equipment, I didn't get any kind of help or support. So I paid someone who knows of these things go bypass that PIN number step and reset the PIN, to a number of my choosing. THAT is the only alteration made since it was in my possession.

Once that was done, I again entered the code (sometimes referred to as a key), and viola....The machine goes into clumping mode.

Now here is the funny thing. Supporters, denying this capability, such as BBB over at WoV have stated these machines don't leave shufflemaster with this capability, that someone must "hack" or change chips I believe is the terminology that you used. And they have said how very rare this would be. So it just so happens this machine I purchased from halfway around the world was one of those very rare exceptions, that had been hacked or whatever.

I don't buy that. I think this hacking or switching of chips is much more common that people think or is being let on. I would go so far as to say that I believe there may even be a wink and nod involved, if you get my drift.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan I suggest you do your own preliminary investigation. Try to get a look at the machine and see if there are easy access code buttons that a floor person could quickly push to stop card counters.

If these easy access code buttons exist then proceed.

But if you can't see easy access code buttons, if the machine needs to be lifted or turned, or if a floor person must get on his knees to program the machine you might want to avoid putting your good name into this.

While you have little liability from the posts of an anonymous forum member, once you endorse or promote what could be libelous claims, your liability changes because it's your forum.

[kewlJ]

Dan I suggest you do your own preliminary investigation. Try to get a look at the machine and see if there are easy access code buttons that a floor person could quickly push to stop card counters.

If these easy access code buttons exist then proceed.

But if you can't see easy access code buttons, if the machine needs to be lifted or turned, or if a floor person must get on his knees to program the machine you might want to avoid putting your good name into this.

While you have little liability from the posts of an anonymous forum member, once you endorse or promote what could be libelous claims, your liability changes because it's your forum.

Alan, what are you doing down there on your hands and knees? Why is that where your mind goes? I am inclined to make a sexual joke, but will refrain. Instead I will just suggest, you get up off your knees....at your age, you are liable to get stuck down there.

I have never seen the process of activating the mode at the casino I mentioned by name. But at the first casino I encountered this situation, which was just about2 years ago, I did see this procedure. No hands and knees, or tilting the machine. The pit person (same guy each time) walked over to the machine and from a normal standing position punched some numbers (or letters) into the keypad/screen. And immediately with the next shuffle you would notice unusual distribution.

Even blatant as this was ( I think sending the message was part of that), it took me a while to figure out what was going on. So next time this occurred, I asked the pit guy, what this was about. He said something about a diagnostic test to be sure the machine was working correctly. I knew this was BS. So I went ahead and suggested that I thought they were stacking the cards (as I left). I never played blackjack at that casino again, but did still visit there periodically for other activities and within a very short period of time, both that particular ASM (the first mod4 I had seen) and even that particular BJ game, double deck dealt face up had been removed from the floor.

I never ran into another Mod4 until the place named downtown. One day to my delight, there were two new tables of additional DD games, more choices. I was delighted. Very quickly I noticed I wasn't winning at these tables, and just as quickly began to notice both the extreme counts which are a bi=product of clumping, plus I could see the actual clumping with a round or two or all high cards. That is when I looked at the ASM and said, "wow, that is a different version, just like at xxx casino two years earlier".

I too encourage Dan to investigate, just as I did others for several weeks. Unfortunately at this moment, I am not aware of any Mod4's in use. I am sure there are, but I just don't know of them. I first posted this accusation almost 4 weeks ago now. And the games at the downtown store mentioned didn't change. I posted a followup almost two weeks ago. That discussion picked up traction and was carried over to a total of 4 forums and Sometime between last Saturday and Monday, these two machines were switched out.

I now specifically look at the model of ASM's and am sure there are no Mod4's in use at my rotation of casinos, which currently numbers 32. I haven't checked the rest of Las Vegas, or other areas. But there will be another opportunity I am certain. Until gaming shuts it down, more and more incidents will pop up.

Naming the downtown casino was obviously another mistake I made. If I was going to post about this as a warning, I could have alluded to the property, without naming the actual name. There is a good chance somebody saw that, or a friend or relative of somebody and that is why those ASM's are now off the floor.

[kewlJ]

You know every day, I swear I am done discussing this. There is no upside for me to continue, and I have issued that warning that I wanted to issue. And then next thing I know, someone says something and I am talking about it.

11 minutes to midnight, at which times, I am done with this discussion. Really. I mean it.

[kewlJ]

There is one more thing I want to say about this (even though it is after midnight...lol).

For those who's first reaction is that I am nuts because there is no way the casino industry would get involved with something so seedy and obviously against the rules, you only need go back 15 years to 2003, to have seen this mentality occur with this industry.

The technology was named Mindplay. For those that aren't familiar, it worked like this. Special table chips and cards. The table or technology could read the cards played and simultaneously tracked each players wager. So in real time, they knew 'the count' or whether the table was currently advantageous to the player or dealer, and they knew who was betting more with the count, which identified card counters.

So when the count went positive, player advantage, surveillance would signal or call down to the pit, who would tell the dealer to shuffle....shuffle away the player advantage. This is altering the odds of the game and using a device to do so. Clearly illegal.

So when the case came before Gaming, the casino industry argued that it was using the technology to better track players wagers, so they could comp players more accurately. What a load of shit!

So Gaming ruled that ok, they could use the technology to more accurately rate players, but they could not do so in real time. There had to be a 12 or 15 round delay (I forget which). This would mean they could not call down when the game favored the player and shuffle away player advantage, but could still more accurately rate players.

So guess what? Not allowed to track play in real time, and shuffle away player advantage, the casino all of the sudden wasn't that interested in that more accurate rating of players, and Mindplay quickly faded away.

This is Mindplay all over again! This industry employs things it knows are illegal, that everyone knows are illegal and doesn't care until they are officially told to stop.

[Moses]

You know every day, I swear I am done discussing this. There is no upside for me to continue, and I have issued that warning that I wanted to issue. And then next thing I know, someone says something and I am talking about it.

11 minutes to midnight, at which times, I am done with this discussion. Really. I mean it.

Let's hope Cinderfella changed back at midnight. There was no upside for YOU in the first place. The downside? Ploppies and Newbie's are going to blow their money anyway. So can we please stop with the "save our forest" mantra.

An AP doesn't or shouldn't need anyones help. The day I need a Savior for blackjack is the the day I jump off the casinos roof.

So your shit storm got them to change out a machine or two? What if many casinos now shorten pen even more, eliminate rules, or change the games to 6.5? Did you still win? Not like it hasn't happened before.

Damn, when did winning stop being enough?

[Alan Mendelson]

Kewlj wrote: "Unfortunately at this moment, I am not aware of any Mod4's in use. I am sure there are, but I just don't know of them. I first posted this accusation almost 4 weeks ago now. And the games at the downtown store mentioned didn't change. I posted a followup almost two weeks ago. That discussion picked up traction and was carried over to a total of 4 forums and Sometime between last Saturday and Monday, these two machines were switched out.*

I now specifically look at the model of ASM's and am sure there are no Mod4's in use at my rotation of casinos, which currently numbers 32. I haven't checked the rest of Las Vegas, or other areas."

Are you telling us there is no verifiable proof these machines existed and you made a declaration that a Vegas casino is cheating without any verifiable proof that could be used as the defense in a libel case? And you have no verifiable proof that one of the top gaming equipment manufacturers made it possible for the cheating because of its product design?

Frankly Dan the thread should be deleted and in its place an apology should be posted that there is no verifiable proof or even any basic evidence that such machines and such activities ever existed.

[MisterV]

Fuck off, alan.

He reported what he SAW and the inferences he drew from it.

At least he seems honest in what he posts.

And what the hell is this rant about "a libel case?"

What cuckoo world do you inhabit where the possibility of a casino or mfr. suing him for libel seems a viable possibility?

You are just so desperate for a "gotcha" on KJ that you're thrown common sense out the window.

As for KJ issuing "an apology" bwa ha ha, what a fucking joke.

[monet]

Maybe this is a personal matter between Norm and kewlJ. Norm had this to say about the subject...

He was not "rebanned". He was permanently banned. And, he is not credible.

[monet]

Fuck off, alan.

He reported what he SAW and the inferences he drew from it.

At least he seems honest in what he posts.

And what the hell is this rant about "a libel case?"

What cuckoo world do you inhabit where the possibility of a casino or mfr. suing him for libel seems a viable possibility?

You are just so desperate for a "gotcha" on KJ that you're thrown common sense out the window.

As for KJ issuing "an apology" bwa ha ha, what a fucking joke.

Go Fuck Yourself Mrs. V you Two Timing Piece of Monkey Shit, Pot Stirring, Pot Smoking Mother Fucker You!

[Alan Mendelson]

MisterV no machine manufacturer or casino will sue an anonymous poster. But guess who is on the hot seat? It's not me. It's not you. It's not monet.

There isn't even the word "allegedly" used or "I believe" used or "appears" used. Oh no. There is only a declararion that they're "cheating."

[MisterV]

Where is this "hot seat" you refer to, given that "no machine manufacturer or casino will sue an anonymous poster?"

Were they in fact stupid enough to identify, locate and sue KJ (easy to do: file suit and subpoena his IP info from Dan) I've no doubt the negative publicity would bury them.

I have to wonder what is your angle in trying to suppress his claim?

[Alan Mendelson]

Are you a lawyer MisterV or just a troll?

If you were Shufflemaster or El Cortez who would you sue?

What's my angle in suppressing his claim? He has no proof. Period.