Hatred on this Forum

[Half Smoke]

Gambling forums, no matter which, really are stuff of no heart, no courage, and no brain.

you're a megalomaniac who thinks you're capable of judging people
you obviously think you're really somebody
allow me to correct you there
you're nobody

yeah, I know what it feels like to be a nobody
I'm a nobody too

but I'm in better shape than you
I'm a nobody who knows that he's a nobody

you're a nobody walking around like a fool thinking you're really somebody

[Alan Mendelson]

I'll give you a little example from real life experiences, but I am not going to use my numbers as for some reason, I get attacked for that.

My younger brother. This was before we became partners. His first year, I set him up with a small bankroll so he could play low stakes $5 and $10 games for experience. Not really about making money. It was part of the learning process.

So I set him up with a 10k rankroll to play red chip. I didn't track his EV precisely as I do my own or my teammates play, but for the level he was playing and the time he was putting in I estimated his EV to be roughly $800 a month. I figured his expected win for the year to be in the $8000 - $10,000 range. (maybe less with a new player making mistakes).

So to use a horseracing term, my brother gets out of the gate fast. Starts winning way above accumulated EV, for the first few months. This was actually the last thing I wanted to see happen. So after 6 months, he has won like 10 grand. That is well over the projected (accumulated EV) amount of 4-5 grand.

So he wants to start spending his winnings. I tried to tell him he can only spend accumulated EV, (better to only spend a portion of accumulated EV to allow for BR growth) but just like Alan, none of this was registering. So I let him go and spend what he wanted. Part of the learning experience.

So second half of the year, he isn't winning at all. Not losing but his second half of the year is pretty flat as tends to happen for sometimes even months at a time in blackjack. I think he won just a little bit that second half of the year. Like under $1000.

So for the total year, he had won like $11,000. Above expectation or accumulated EV, but pretty close. BUT he had spend about 13-14 thousand dollars because he spent all his winning while winning above expectation. So at years end, despite winning above "accumulated EV", his bankroll was now like $7600.


Spending winnings without knowing where you are and your winnings are in relationship to expectation, is flat out a recipe for disaster. It is almost a certainty that this will lead to your bankroll disappearing at some point. This is precisely why we track expectation and accumulated EV is the vehicle for doing that.

I'm going to be gentle with you kewlj. I don't think anyone understands what the heck you just wrote here.

The one thing that was clear is that you included an insult for me.

Now, what you wrote might be clear to you so I'm not going to criticize it. In fact, I can't criticize it because I just don't understand what you wrote.

So please try again.

[Alan Mendelson]

Kewlj stop insulting me and look what you wrote in your response to regnis:

Accumulated EV, which is the term I use (others may use different terminology) is how professional blackjack players, team and solo players, track their play.

This is your problem kewlj. You need to use terminology the rest of the world is using. No one is going to understand you otherwise. It is not hate. It is not trolling. It is communication.

[MisterV]

I'm going to be gentle with you kewlj. I don't think anyone understands what the heck you just wrote here.

I understand what he wrote.

To summarize: A prudent AP spends only those portion of his winnings attributable to the calculated EV; otherewise your bankroll will suffer.

There, why is that so hard for you to understand?

alan, free your mind and your ass will follow, the key to gambling is within ( *with apologies to Funkadelic* )

[Alan Mendelson]

I'm going to be gentle with you kewlj. I don't think anyone understands what the heck you just wrote here.

I understand what he wrote.

To summarize: A prudent AP spends only those portion of his winnings attributable to the calculated EV; otherewise your bankroll will suffer.

There, why is that so hard for you to understand?

alan, free your mind and your ass will follow, the key to gambling is within ( *with apologies to Funkadelic* )

No you picked what you wanted to understand which is typical of the AP mafia. Kewlj still hasn't explained accumulating EV or how it's used. In fact he even confessed to regnis that accumulated EV is a term that he uses that others don't.

This is simply too much gobbledygook.

Now, again, I'm asking kewlj to explain it again, and this time use language we all understand and I personally would appreciate it if he didn't insult me again.

By the way I have low expectations here. A week or so ago these forum members couldn't even agree on a definition of "free play."

[redietz]

The above post is just tongue-in-cheek, undoubtedly designed to get a few guffaws.

Might I suggest this? I'll have some sites up and running after football. Those people wishing to discuss advantage play and such will be invited to hang out. You'll have to show your math if you have some theories, however. No inane speculating. And if you're going to go on bizarre philosophical spiels, that's fine, but you'll have to give your real name.

I have no interest in forums, but the sheer inanity of this place needs to end. I think the thing to do here is simply make up stories that agree with Mendelson and Singer. You know, fill this forum with, "Yeah, I used win goals and stop losses, hit five royals in a day, and bought a yacht to park in my yard. Never mind that Tennessee is land-locked; it'll look good being towed by my RV." Stuff like that. Just make stuff up. "I'm not sure what AART is exactly, but I used it to get banned from three offshores and my neighborhood laundromat yesterday. Singer's progression worked so well with video poker, I started using it at the local Hooters. If my waitress turned down my offer of a date, I just walked to the wait station and asked two at the same time. When that didn't work, I whipped out my bullhorn, and voila--menage a quatro. Talk about a double bonus!"

Everybody just do one sarcastic story a day. Make these guys the heroes they deserve to be.

[Moses]

Alan. I think KJ is saying to invest more as ones bankroll accumulates which is a prudent logical course. That's fine but you need a sizeable backroll in the first place. It's unlikely to assume the newbie is going to acquire growth. Most couldn't spell DOG is you spotted them the D and the O. Few can endure the manure because they expect/demand instant rewards and have entitlement issues. IMO KJ is the exception and not the rule.

Norm rarely has a good thing to say about anyone, especially KJ. But the one thing I remember Norm saying, even in the midst, in their battle was you HAVE to believe. KJ believes.

[redietz]

I'll give you a little example from real life experiences, but I am not going to use my numbers as for some reason, I get attacked for that.

My younger brother. This was before we became partners. His first year, I set him up with a small bankroll so he could play low stakes $5 and $10 games for experience. Not really about making money. It was part of the learning process.

So I set him up with a 10k rankroll to play red chip. I didn't track his EV precisely as I do my own or my teammates play, but for the level he was playing and the time he was putting in I estimated his EV to be roughly $800 a month. I figured his expected win for the year to be in the $8000 - $10,000 range. (maybe less with a new player making mistakes).

So to use a horseracing term, my brother gets out of the gate fast. Starts winning way above accumulated EV, for the first few months. This was actually the last thing I wanted to see happen. So after 6 months, he has won like 10 grand. That is well over the projected (accumulated EV) amount of 4-5 grand.

So he wants to start spending his winnings. I tried to tell him he can only spend accumulated EV, (better to only spend a portion of accumulated EV to allow for BR growth) but just like Alan, none of this was registering. So I let him go and spend what he wanted. Part of the learning experience.

So second half of the year, he isn't winning at all. Not losing but his second half of the year is pretty flat as tends to happen for sometimes even months at a time in blackjack. I think he won just a little bit that second half of the year. Like under $1000.

So for the total year, he had won like $11,000. Above expectation or accumulated EV, but pretty close. BUT he had spend about 13-14 thousand dollars because he spent all his winning while winning above expectation. So at years end, despite winning above "accumulated EV", his bankroll was now like $7600.


Spending winnings without knowing where you are and your winnings are in relationship to expectation, is flat out a recipe for disaster. It is almost a certainty that this will lead to your bankroll disappearing at some point. This is precisely why we track expectation and accumulated EV is the vehicle for doing that.

I'm going to be gentle with you kewlj. I don't think anyone understands what the heck you just wrote here.

The one thing that was clear is that you included an insult for me.

Now, what you wrote might be clear to you so I'm not going to criticize it. In fact, I can't criticize it because I just don't understand what you wrote.

So please try again.

I understood kewlJ perfectly. Now I sometimes conflate my IQ with my best bowling average, but I don't think it took that many neurons.

[Alan Mendelson]

Moses yes I understood what kewlj wrote but I don't understand what that has to do with accumulating EV. Do you? Because the question was about how accumulating EV effects play. And frankly I don't need to be concerned with EV to tell anyone not to blow their profits.

[regnis]

I also understand KJ's last response to me. It is not necessary that I agree with all of it. But I do believe I got an honest answer.

And my IQ is probably closer to my golf average--and I was a pretty good golfer.

[kewlJ]

Oh boy...back to tracking two tables. Do these challenges and attempts to discredit never end?

Moses, I wouldn't expect you to know much about or have even thought much about tracking two tables. It most definitely is not a technique that would be beneficial to players that primarily play single or even double deck. In best used in 6 and 8 deck shoe games where there is an enormous advantage to jumping from one game with a negative and neutral count to the next with a positive count for many rounds. As someone who only plays single deck games, I suspect there are things you do or apply that are specifically advantageous to single deck that I would not consider. Actually from reading your posts I know there are! Higher level and specialty counts for example. Benefical at single deck, but much less so (a waste of time IMO) at shoe games.


Anyone familiar with the term "wonging" There are two parts to "wonging" Wonging IN involves back counting a table and jumping in when the count turns advantageous. Wonging OUT involves exiting negative counts or situations. Tracking two tables simply incorporates both techniques.

I didn't learn this technique from anyone in particular, although, I do know that I remember Richard Munchin mentioned it. Perhaps that influenced me. Munchkin has no doubt influenced me as I have read and listened to just about anything he has to say, including private conversations.

But after I began to incorporate tracking a second table, I was not surprised to find out that numerous professional and top notch players did so or have done so during their careers, Munchkins, Don Schlesinger and Bigplayer and 21forme (for those that participate on blackjack forums) among them. And surely many more professional and top notch player.


And for the hundredth time, no the count at that second table doesn't have to be completely accurate. Just enough to know it is more advantageous that the table you are currently playing.

Moses, here is a question for you. Wonging in. You walk by a table. 3 players and the dealer. Glancing at the felt, you see the following hands. 3,6,10; 5,5,8; 4,6,3,7 and the dealer 7,6,5. (dealer busted) That is a running count of +8 for you non counters. Moses would you jump into that game? Would you jump in knowing that was several rounds played that you did not see?

The answer to both questions is yes. Proven by Stanford Wong (John Ferguson) who is credited with the wonging technique.

So anyway, wonging both in and out are mathematically proven techniques and tracking two tables simply incorporates both.

One final comment. I don't know if your mirror comment was in reference to my statement that I once tracked a second game in Atlantic City by looking at the mirror above the pit which provided a clear view (upside down) of a table directly across the pit. This was one location, a long time ago that if conditions were right, I was able to do this and did so a handful of times. Just kind of a "you never know what advantageous situation might pop of that you can use to your benefit" kind of thing. And the really amazing thing: upon my mention of this I received an email from a long-time professional player, one of those mentioned in this post, informing me that he had also at times been able to track a second game through that mirror. So we had a good laugh about "the good old days".

And you know what's really funny about that limited experience and opportunity? Those mirrors above were not just for decoration. They had a purpose. They hid the cameras behind them and in the case of this older property probably the catwalk behind the mirror that were used in an attempt to stop card counters and they ended up providing a whole extra opportunity.

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan. I think KJ is saying to invest more as ones bankroll accumulates which is a prudent logical course. That's fine but you need a sizeable backroll in the first place. It's unlikely to assume the newbie is going to acquire growth. Most couldn't spell DOG is you spotted them the D and the O. Few can endure the manure because they expect/demand instant rewards and have entitlement issues. IMO KJ is the exception and not the rule.

Norm rarely has a good thing to say about anyone, especially KJ. But the one thing I remember Norm saying, even in the midst, in their battle was you HAVE to believe. KJ believes.

That's a very nice interpretation but what does it have to do with accumulating EV?

What kewlj wrote is close to something he's criticized me for which is setting win goals and loss limits.

[blackhole]

Wonder what the accumulated EV was when the buyers paid Mike S. 2.3 million for a site worth only 85K?

Kewlj’s explanations sound no different than the fairy tale about the sale of the site for 2.3 million. BULLSHIT

[regnis]

[QUOTE=kewlJ;75567]Oh boy...back to tracking two tables. Do these challenges and attempts to discredit never end?

Tracking 2 tables in BJ is nothing. Try throwing dice with DI at 2 tables at once. Now that is a challenge!!!

[MaxPen]

Alan deserves no further responses. KJ can try and try again and Alan will still never understand. A Tard is gonna Tard. King of the Short Bus, what a waste.

[kewlJ]

That's a very nice interpretation but what does it have to do with accumulating EV?

Alan, my explanations have EVERYTHING to do with "accumulating EV". I can't help it if you can't, don't or don't want to understand. THAT is your issue not mine. And for what it is worth this issue of you not understanding has everything to do with you being and thinking like a gambler, a losing player. THAT is the barrier here. That is not meant as an attack....it is just a fact. You have a mentality and thought process that is just completely opposite from an AP or professional player, so it is no real surprise that you don't understand these concepts.

What kewlj wrote is close to something he's criticized me for which is setting win goals and loss limits.

And now YOU have lost ME because nothing I said has anything to do with or is even remotely close to the topic of win goals and stop limits.

But I have to go to work now, so please don't explain what you are thinking.

[kewlJ]

Alan deserves no further responses. KJ can try and try again and Alan will still never understand. A Tard is gonna Tard. King of the Short Bus, what a waste.

You are proven right again MaxPen. I try though. I really try.

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan deserves no further responses. KJ can try and try again and Alan will still never understand. A Tard is gonna Tard. King of the Short Bus, what a waste.

MaxPen I expect nothing different from you. Fortunately the rest of the world can read the nonsense for themselves.

Again I'm asking kewlj to explain himself again. If he chooses not to then so be it and the discussion is done just like the mysterious shuffling machines that disappeared before the cheating could be confirmed.

[jbjb]

While you guys are arguing, we're up $7800 after only an hour and a half, dealer is on break for a few more minutes. Carry on....

[kewlJ]

Again I'm asking kewlj to explain himself again. If he chooses not to then so be it and the discussion is done just like the mysterious shuffling machines that disappeared before the cheating could be confirmed.

Alan, I think you are aware of the shuffle machine situation. I have ceased discussion of this situation because I was asked to and it created problems with fellow AP that were exploiting that play.

But I think I can say this. That particular location and the particular shuffle machines were in use for months before I brought the situation to light and for almost a full month after I initiated discussion, not once but twice on multiple forums with carryover discussion to forums that I couldn't even participate at.

This situation was more than confirmed believe me. It was confirmed and known by many before I made it so public. And even more after I did so.


I suspect you are referring to your buddy Michael Shackelford Mike decided (and announced) that he was going to look into the situation about a week after the machines had been pulled and about 5 weeks after I brought the situation to light. 5 weeks!?! Given our relationship I did him the courtesy of informing him through a third party that the situation had changed. Again I say Five weeks! I mean Mike is an AP. Would he read of an AP play on an open forum....wait five weeks to take a look....and then be surprised that the play was no longer there?

Obviously, I have again said too much and will get some STFU communications from my AP family, but I will say the situation in question worked out well for me. My actions got those particular machines at those particular tables replaced. Tables that I couldn't win at with standard card counting and now I can again and have. And that has contributed to my really nice year (so far).

And one other place that I shouldn't go. My discussion got those particular machines at that particular location removed and replaced. But Las Vegas is a big city with many casinos. Oh yeah...I am definitely going to hear from some people.