casino cheating

[kewlJ]

I am going to link to a discussion from another forum involving casino cheating as it is something casino patrons, AP or not, should read. I hope it isn't against Dan's rules to do so.

The discussion begins with post #70 & #74 in the linked thread and a new member to that forum, Nightshifter, who claims to be or have been, a casino dealer and details ways in which he is instructed to cheat. He seems to think this is completely legal, referring to it as "legalized cheating" of which it is not. If this is occurring it is cheating and illegal.

I am in no way vouching for the credibility of this poster, but I think it is something casino patrons should read, and be aware of and decide for themselves. I apologize in advance that this member's post are hard to read as he posts in one long paragraph format. (probably a result of posting from a cell phone)

https://www.blackjackinfo.com/commun...-4#post-498910

[Alan Mendelson]

Let me see if I understand this. This dealer claims he can shuffle the cards and clump them together so even after the cut card is inserted the cards are not used?

If so he not only would have to shuffle the cards together but when he makes his cuts during the shuffle he'd have to be aware of where the "clump" is.

Do I have that right?

[kewlJ]

Let me see if I understand this. This dealer claims he can shuffle the cards and clump them together so even after the cut card is inserted the cards are not used?

If so he not only would have to shuffle the cards together but when he makes his cuts during the shuffle he'd have to be aware of where the "clump" is.

Do I have that right?

Somewhat but not exactly Alan. He clearly said that in a handheld game he can manipulate the 'chunck' of high cards to an area that "most people cut out of play". I suppose if you area dealer or even a player that took such an interest, you would notice a tendency of cut that is more frequent than others. An example just off the top of my head, (from my experience) would be that in a double deck game, from my experience most cuts are either somewhere towards the middle, in the neighborhood of 1 deck or for those that like to "cut thin" the thin part is usually at the top. It is much less rarer that someone cuts "thick" with the thin part towards the bottom, again based on my experience, and just off the top of my head, not having specifically looked for this.

Complicating things further, is that some 'thin' cuts are disallowed. I have been told I have to cut at least half a deck at some places. So based on these off the top of my head remembrances, I would say if a dealer was able to "chunck" Aces and high cards together at the beginning or top of deck as he presented the deck to be cut, the chances are good that "chunck" would be cut out of play. And the poster specifically said that sometimes it doesn't work, but more often than not it did.

I can already tell just from your short reply that you are learning (fairly strongly) that this is nonsense. That is your choice. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I just would like every player, whether AP or not to consider the possibility that this type of thing or others like it occur and have occurred for a very long time. "Mechanic" is the term used for a dealer than can do these types of things and casinos have been doing these things for a very long time.

[MaxPen]

Doesn't matter if the 10 clump is cut off or not. Keep the aces away from the 10's and that by itself is enough to add significantly to the casino return. This method of shuffling as well as preferential shuffling in certain single deck games is easily found and in use in Vegas.
If it is allowed and encouraged one can only imagine the shenanigans behind the scenes with ASM's.

[coach belly]

I have been told I have to cut at least half a deck at some places.

How often do you cut the deck?

I'm assuming that you cut the deck only when playing an ASM game, so dealer chunking wouldn't be possible.

Do I have that right?

[kewlJ]

Doesn't matter if the 10 clump is cut off or not. Keep the aces away from the 10's and that by itself is enough to add significantly to the casino return. This method of shuffling as well as preferential shuffling is easily found and in use in Vegas double deck games.
If it is allowed and encouraged one can only imagine the shenanigans behind the scenes with ASM's.

That is correct.

As a frequent player, we all know of the history of "mechanics". Not necessarily manipulating the cards in the manner discussed here, but other things like dealing seconds. I think many players, myself included, sort of concluded that in today's environment, any "shenanigans", to use MaxPen's word, were done on their own by the dealer. I mean there are stories of dealer doing these kind of things, not necessarily to increase house profits but more along the lines of to punish and make a player lose that they don't like for non-tipping or any other reason.

So that part where he says the pit whispered in his ear instructing him to do so, is a bit disturbing. Something to consider is all I am saying.

[kewlJ]

I have been told I have to cut at least half a deck at some places.

How often do you cut the deck?

I'm assuming that you cut the deck only when playing an ASM game, so dealer chunking wouldn't be possible.

Do I have that right?

No you don't. The deck is presented to a player for cut following each shuffle (including ASM) prior to the cards being dealt.

Being that I seek out conditions with minimal players, my preference is one other player, rather than heads up, but I will only play with 1,2 at the most 3 players. So I find myself cutting fairly frequently, especially since some players don't like and decline to cut.

[coach belly]

I have been told I have to cut at least half a deck at some places.

How often do you cut the deck?

I'm assuming that you cut the deck only when playing an ASM game, so dealer chunking wouldn't be possible.

Do I have that right?

No you don't. The deck is presented to a player for cut following each shuffle (including ASM) prior to the cards being dealt.

I was referring specifically to you cutting the deck.

How often do you cut the deck...how often do you play ASM games vs hand-shuffled games?

[kewlJ]

I was referring specifically to you cutting the deck.

How often do you cut the deck...how often do you play ASM games vs hand-shuffled games?

It is not something I keep track of, but off the top of my head I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-50, maybe 60-40 in favor of ASM, because given the choice between ASM and hand shuffle, and some casino's in my rotation offer both, I will generally choose an ASM game (less down time), IF all other considerations are equal, like number of players, or whether or not table offers side bets, which slow the game down.

What is the point you want to make?

[coach belly]

What is the point you want to make?

I accept that dealers can cheat in hand-held games, but how can the dealer clump/chunk cards or deal seconds in an ASM shoe game?

Regarding you cutting the pack, I was curious if you played hand-shuffled games, and how often you played from the beginning of the shoe.

Considering your exit triggers, how often do you sit though a hand-shuffle, then exit the game if the shoe runs negative right off the top?

[kewlJ]

I accept that dealers can cheat in hand-held games, but how can the dealer clump/chunk cards or deal seconds in an ASM shoe game?

The ASM "clumping discussion" is a different discussion and one I am not going into again, but rest assured that capability is possible.

Regarding you cutting the pack, I was curious if you played hand-shuffled games, and how often you played from the beginning of the shoe.

Almost all of my play is "off the top" or the beginning of a shoe. Occasionally I will walk by a game in progress and wong in if there are many small cards on the felt, but the majority of time, I play off the top and wong OUT aggressively. On those occasions that I am able to track a second table while playing my primary, I may jump tables mid game, but the session is usually initiated off the top of a fresh shuffle. Playing off the top is just a style I like and feel comfortable with.

Considering your exit triggers, how often do you sit though a hand-shuffle, then exit the game if the shoe runs negative right off the top?

It happens. Sometimes I will wait until I lose a hand and then say something like I don't like the way this shoe is going. Might even be I won several hands lose 1 and say that. Unless you are playing heads up the dealer isn't concerned or remembering how many hands you have won or lost recently.

A more problematic situation is when the cards go negative hitting an exit trigger one or two rounds into the first time through the cards (immediately after sitting). You can also employ that same technique of saying I don't like the way this is starting, especially if losing), but that likely doesn't buy you much. Sitting down, playing 2,3 or 4 rounds and then exiting just flat out looks unnatural.

If I am playing a double deck game and sit down and cards immediately go bad, I may play through, especially if there are other players and you only have to get through 7 or 8 rounds until the shuffle. Sit out a round or two "to change the cards" and your almost there. But shoe games are more problematic. I am exiting regardless of how it looks. I am just not going to sit and play through 30-40 rounds of negative expectation, when there are better opportunities near by.

[kewlJ]

But shoe games are more problematic. I am exiting regardless of how it looks. I am just not going to sit and play through 30-40 rounds of negative expectation, when there are better opportunities near by.

There is a member of some of the blackjack forums (doesn't participate too much anymore), who was/is a long-time member of Tommy Hylands very successful long running blackjack teams, that I like to quote and one of my favorites is: "the beauty of Las Vegas is quantity, not quality". The meaning being, Vegas doesn't have the best games in the country, there are much better games elsewhere, but what Vegas does has that almost no other place has is such a large number of playable games in close proximity.

That is why I relocated to Vegas and to sit and play through a bunch of negative shoes is not taking advantage of the best feature of Vegas.

[Half Smoke]

I don't believe Nightshifter's BS for even one second
I believe he's a troll trying to stir the pot

tens of thousands of pages of authoritative blackjack literature are in publication
I've read most of it

I've heard of dealers colluding with players and cheating for themselves
but I've never even once heard of a dealer cheating for the house

it may have happened in very tiny casinos but I'm extremely doubtful it would happen in the large casinos that APs operate in

this dog just doesn't hunt




investigators have found out all kinds of things that were supposed to be kept secret in this world re governments , spies, etc.

do you really think that until now nobody would have proved that casino dealers cheat for the house?

no effing way

[kewlJ]

Half Smoke, you think no dealer ever cheated for the house?


good grief.

[monet]

Some older Las Vegas dealers have anonymously told journalists that back in the day when many casinos were mob-run dealers would be required to run scams against players.
Refusing to do so meant kissing their jobs goodbye.

These days, however, there is very little incentive for a casino to cheat.
For one thing, regulatory bodies like the Nevada Gaming Control Board and the New Jersey Gaming Commission are serious about auditing casinos and cracking down hard when wrongdoing is found.

- Joseph Larsen -

---------------------------------

Just because they have little incentive does not mean it doesn't still happen.
Once again... learn how to cheat so you don't get cheated.

[Half Smoke]

Half Smoke, you think no dealer ever cheated for the house?


good grief.

if it happened in a large casino it's so rare that it's insignificant

like walking in the rain and worrying about lightning striking you - and it's not even a thunderstorm, just a regular rain



also, if the house cheated at BJ they would cheat at roulette and craps too - to make more than their fair share there too

where are the stories about that?
where is the proof - nobody can find proof?
it's beyond the capabilities of investigators?

[Alan Mendelson]

For a dealer to be able to manipulate the cards into a clump he would first need to know which were the high cards (were they marked?) and then isolate the during the shuffle and then isolate the clump and then have the psychic ability to know where a player would insert the cut card.

That's too much for me to swallow.

[MaxPen]

For a dealer to be able to manipulate the cards into a clump he would first need to know which were the high cards (were they marked?) and then isolate the during the shuffle and then isolate the clump and then have the psychic ability to know where a player would insert the cut card.

That's too much for me to swallow.

Just continue showing up at the Red Rock craps tables to make your weekly donations and swallow the free sugar water "juice" they give you.

[Alan Mendelson]

Oh Max, you're still stinging from your reading comprehension problem. I understand though. When you have nothing else to say you troll me. You are truly a little man.

You trolled kewlj's thread and your post should be removed and you should be blocked from kewlj's thread... if Dan keeps his word/policy.

[MaxPen]

You troll every answer you get. You are beyond help. I could care less if Dan bans me. He may as well, would stop your dumb ass complaining to him nonstop.