2018 start

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

EV is nothing more than a wish and a hope. Drop it already.

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EV built Las Vegas.

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So did seriously threatening to beat people up? Not so different from your "hero", of a few weeks ago, who promptly turned right around and said it was all a big joke, after a bunch of people called him on it.

Fourteen years is a lot of time make shit up, get tossed off the major blackjack forums, and while away the time bickering endlessly over who said and did what to whom at the lesser ones.

And you guys want instant credibility on the internet?

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I don't need credibility. If you don't believe what I write I don't give a rat's ass. Have you ever made a post here that isn't a troll?

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

So did seriously threatening to beat people up? Not so different from your "hero", of a few weeks ago, who promptly turned right around and said it was all a big joke, after a bunch of people called him on it.

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What was funny was those guys thought he was serious and got scared. When it was going on KJ and I were trading PM's about it and laughing our asses off. It was so out of character that it was obvious KJ was jerking their chains.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

This is Alan being idiotic.

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This is another despicable post by you ...you should be banned.

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This is another despicable post by you....you should be banned.

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by jbjb

P.S. We made $37,650 today from only $8000 in "EV" on blackjack from one of our favorite dealers. :cool:

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Likely something a little "stronger" edge than card counting.

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Why? The comparison here is between result and expected value, which would show the variance.

Like the story of Mickey's slot play that, supposedly, if we believe another big AP, obviously didn't happen. Unless, of course, it happens only once a year. Right, Mickey?:confused:

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Wrong, Yung. Sonnyboy you are clueless.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

NO, You can't spend EV, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT.

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Thank you, AxelWolf. That's the entire point I was trying to make. And because you can't spend EV to claim that you played thousands of dollars at your EV while losing money (let's say $8800) does not make you a winner or give you a profit or bring you closer to having a profit or even being closer to being a winner.

Now kewlj and the rest of you might want to argue this till doomsday but it's not going to change. EV is not legal tender for all debts public and private.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

... ask Shell if they'll let you pay for a tank of gas with EV. Ask kewlj if he ever made a mortgage payment with EV.

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Speaking of gas I'm getting a 5% rebate on gas purchases this quarter on one of my credit cards. I pay the balance off every month so I don't get tagged for interest. I guess you could say this is an AP move. The only reason I have this particular card is because of the various rebate offers I get every quarter. And I sometimes buy my gas at Shell.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

... ask Shell if they'll let you pay for a tank of gas with EV. Ask kewlj if he ever made a mortgage payment with EV.

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Speaking of gas I'm getting a 5% rebate on gas purchases this quarter on one of my credit cards. I pay the balance off every month so I don't get tagged for interest. I guess you could say this is an AP move. The only reason I have this particular card is because of the various rebate offers I get every quarter. And I sometimes buy my gas at Shell.

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The Credit card game is an easy +EV play for those disciplined enough to properly use it and can survive the credit score swings from the hard inquiries. There are websites out there with the best public card deals and more unlisted ones out there.

As you said, you must pay them off every month or the interest kills any advantage from rebates or sign up deals.

Wells Fargo has a good cash back card with a current $200 signup if you spend $1000 in 3 months along with 1.5 cashback on every purchase or 1.8% back on charges made with Apple Pay. You can deposit your money into a WF checking account, get a check mailed to you or.... imagine this Alan, pay your WF mortgage principal with it. So technically you are paying your mortgage with +EV.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I guess Bill Yung is going to pick up the slack of the anti-AP agenda guys, taking shots at various AP's and adding nothing constructive. You anti-Ap guys seem to have a deep bench. :(

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They're jealous losers. Let them cry.

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Look, I picked out one of the run-on bits to reply to, so as not to continue to waste all of my own time.

Go to any casino any night of the week. How often does anyone at any table win $40,000? How often? In the near empty high-roller rooms? Are any of the weird games in there? You could play for decades, and not see that.

On the internet, though, apparently, it's everywhere. But all I see is casinos with people and cameras up everybody's you know what. Go, sometime, and see what I mean. Tell me they don't see the ones making all that money.

So, no, I don't care about who wins or loses, in any case. And yes, it's fun to poke a stick at the ones who do.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I ask why stop because you've hit on a gold mine: $15 a minute or $900 an hour.

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Alan, your answer here is proof that you don't have a clue about advantage plays. The game in question is a video line game with a banking feature on it. There is a cloverleaf symbol on the 5th reel. When it lands on the line there is a counter that moves from zero to 1. The cloverleaf lands on the line an average of every 36 spins. When the cloverleaf lands on the line a second time the counter moves to 2. When the cloverleaf lands on the line a third time you go into a bonus round. It's a positive play when I find the counter on 2. How did it get on 2? Some ploppie did it then walked. I only have to catch the cloverleaf one time to get the bonus. Once I catch the cloverleaf and get the bonus the counter resets to zero and the game is back in negative expectation so I cash out. I might find a dozen plays a month but it is just one of about a dozen games I exploit.

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That was my point with Alan. He had to understand this play isn’t something you sit and play hour after hour. But he wanted it to sound like you were claiming you make $900 an hour. I still contend he isn’t as naive as he comes off.

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Originally Posted by The Boz

I still contend he isn’t as naive as he comes off.

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If you were smart, ie, played optimal strategy, you would assume this, and get on with your own life. And not appear so foolish.

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

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Originally Posted by The Boz

I still contend he isn’t as naive as he comes off.

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If you were smart, ie, played optimal strategy, you would assume this, and get on with your own life. And not appear so foolish.

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Thanks for the advice! I feel welcome here and honored now once with you generously providing your free unsolicited opinion.

So now it turns out mickeycrimm was not telling the whole story and left out vital details including that he had to scout for hands or clovers or whatever left over by previous ploppies, which means that it wasn't so easy to make $15 in one minure. So why did he leave out these details?

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Originally Posted by The Boz

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I ask why stop because you've hit on a gold mine: $15 a minute or $900 an hour.

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Alan, your answer here is proof that you don't have a clue about advantage plays. The game in question is a video line game with a banking feature on it. There is a cloverleaf symbol on the 5th reel. When it lands on the line there is a counter that moves from zero to 1. The cloverleaf lands on the line an average of every 36 spins. When the cloverleaf lands on the line a second time the counter moves to 2. When the cloverleaf lands on the line a third time you go into a bonus round. It's a positive play when I find the counter on 2. How did it get on 2? Some ploppie did it then walked. I only have to catch the cloverleaf one time to get the bonus. Once I catch the cloverleaf and get the bonus the counter resets to zero and the game is back in negative expectation so I cash out. I might find a dozen plays a month but it is just one of about a dozen games I exploit.

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That was my point with Alan. He had to understand this play isn’t something you sit and play hour after hour. But he wanted it to sound like you were claiming you make $900 an hour. I still contend he isn’t as naive as he comes off.

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This is the whole problem. Alan DOESN’T understand that. He doesn’t really understand what advantage play even is, or why scouting is essential, or why advantage players can’t and don’t win on every single play. Now Mickey gave him an exceptionally detailed, clear explanation. He won’t understand that either, he will make several more questions/ challenges—-still won’t understand—-and then Mickey will give up in disgust.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

So now it turns out mickeycrimm was not telling the whole story and left out vital details including that he had to scout for hands or clovers or whatever left over by previous ploppies, which means that it wasn't so easy to make $15 in one minure. So why did he leave out these details?

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Because everyone who understands what he is doing knows scouting is essential for every one of his plays. He has explained it over and over and over. It’s very clear and credible. I don’t have any interest in doing it, but I understand and respect it.

I'm sorry but it wasn't clear. Look at mickeycrimm's initial comment about this. Absolutely NO mention was made about scouting or finding abandoned clovers or whatever.

Now you might be able to fill in the blanks but I didn't know there were blanks to be filled.

Had I quoted mickeycrimm in a TV news report I could have been suspended for reporting inaccurate info.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Had I quoted mickeycrimm in a TV news report I could have been suspended for reporting inaccurate info.

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Yea that happens in today’s media environment. If it did CNN would be out of staff and would have to run Forensic Files 24 hours a day like they do on Headline News.

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Originally Posted by Dankyone

I don’t have any interest in doing it, but I understand and respect it.

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I recall he wrote there is one other person in the other half of Montana. They stay out of each other's way. I don't know what the other guy is packing, he didn't say.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

So now it turns out mickeycrimm was not telling the whole story and left out vital details including that he had to scout for hands or clovers or whatever left over by previous ploppies, which means that it wasn't so easy to make $15 in one minure. So why did he leave out these details?

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I've explained many times that on my Montana plays I spend about half the time scouting and half the time in the seat spinning the plays off. Under current conditions my seat time is worth an average of about $100 an hour. It's been as high as $140 an hour in the past. I usually hit the casinos at 8 AM when they open up and I head back to the hotel around 4 PM. I don't get in a hurry. I don't overwork myself. I just mosey around and pick off plays. So you can say my overall time is worth about $50 an hour. But that is in Montana and I now have out of state plays. My time is now divided up between Montana and out of state.

I STILL haven't explained all of the details of this particular play. I have driving to do today so can't get into it now. But when I do you will get to learn about how static bonuses work.

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

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Originally Posted by Dankyone

I don’t have any interest in doing it, but I understand and respect it.

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I recall he wrote there is one other person in the other half of Montana. They stay out of each other's way. I don't know what the other guy is packing, he didn't say.

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I taught the other guy everything he knows about video poker and slot advantages. We were friends. He was always following me around in Nevada and horning in on my plays. He came up here two years after I got here. We were in phone contact but I didn't tell him anything about how lucrative it was. But he is a smart guy and he knew I wouldn't be hanging out in Montana if I wasn't making decent money. He came up under the guise of paying me back the $4000 I once loaned him and never went back to Nevada to pick the money up, which he had laying in his safety deposit box at the Golden Nugget.

He was a trouble maker kind of guy in Nevada but never messed with me. That is, until he got to Montana. He screwed me over a couple of times so I eventually told him no more contact. He left Montana a couple of years ago because plays dried up to where he couldn't make decent money. But not before teaching someone in Billings some of the plays left . I know someone who knows the guy he taught.

But what he didn't realize was some of the new games were highly exploitable. He doesn't have the ability to figure the complicated ones out and he doesn't have me to teach them to him anymore. He left thinking it was no longer good in Montana. That's what he gets for fucking me over.

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Originally Posted by The Boz

imagine this Alan, pay your WF mortgage principal with it. So technically you are paying your mortgage with +EV.

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How about this one? Our machine play generates entries into drawings. This is additional positive expectation. I don't know quite how to go about figuring out what it is worth. Dancer has some sort of formula, but it is beyond me. I just count it as extra bonus expected value.

So is there anybody that would argue this is not positive value? Alan? :confused:

So over the years, I have won a number of these drawings, most small amounts of a couple hundred in free play, to few larger prizes, 10k cash, an automobile and a couple years ago, I won.....one year of rent or mortgage payments. That would be positive EV paying my mortgage Alan. :rolleyes:

Of course that really wasn't what I or anyone was saying when we say +EV pays our bills. Alan knows this, he is just playing his usual "technicality" game.

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Originally Posted by The Boz

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Had I quoted mickeycrimm in a TV news report I could have been suspended for reporting inaccurate info.

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Yea that happens in today’s media environment. If it did CNN would be out of staff and would have to run Forensic Files 24 hours a day like they do on Headline News.

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So why were you not suspended for reporting rob singer’s inaccurate info?

When I reported on Rob Singer it was clearly identified as being his strategy and Rob was 100% up front and honest that ALL of his special plays were at a DISADVANTAGE to conventional strategy. Think about that: he presented his strategy and honestly said what it's shortcomings are.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

When I reported on Rob Singer it was clearly identified as being his strategy and Rob was 100% up front and honest that ALL of his special plays were at a DISADVANTAGE to conventional strategy. Think about that: he presented his strategy and honestly said what it's shortcomings are.

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Um, no, you sucked up to him like he was Ken Uston and he pretended dishonestly like he was God.

Kewlj you made an outrageous claim that losing $8800 contributed to your profits because it was part of your +EV play. I will never accept that losing $8800 of real money will be a positive development. Never.

As I said before, all you had to say was "I played anticipating a positive edge, but it didn't work out." No one would complain about that. But when you start twisting and turning and dancing claiming that losing $8800 contributes to some cockamamie +EV strategy rational minds are going to say WTF?

But, KJ does have an edge. You don’t. He has credibility—you sound like a fool.

KJ had a great quote...

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Originally Posted by Dankyone

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

When I reported on Rob Singer it was clearly identified as being his strategy and Rob was 100% up front and honest that ALL of his special plays were at a DISADVANTAGE to conventional strategy. Think about that: he presented his strategy and honestly said what it's shortcomings are.

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Um, no, you sucked up to him like he was Ken Uston and he pretended dishonestly like he was God.

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Nothing I say will be accepted by you. You don't like him. End of story.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by Dankyone

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

When I reported on Rob Singer it was clearly identified as being his strategy and Rob was 100% up front and honest that ALL of his special plays were at a DISADVANTAGE to conventional strategy. Think about that: he presented his strategy and honestly said what it's shortcomings are.

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Um, no, you sucked up to him like he was Ken Uston and he pretended dishonestly like he was God.

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Nothing I say will be accepted by you. You don't like him. End of story.

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And nothing we say will be accepted by you. You don't like us. You'll continue to be a sheep slaughtered by casinos. If you truly want to be a casino winner, you'll employ strategies and tactics that we employ. There is no other way about it, period!

I'm all ears jbjb. Please detail the winning strategies you employ. (LOL)

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I'm all ears jbjb. Please detail the winning strategies you employ. (LOL)

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Alan, what does it matter? You have been told about 5000 times; you don’t get it. You don’t understand what advantage play is, you don’t understand what expected value is, you don’t even know how to exploit a comp system after decades of losing.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I'm all ears jbjb. Please detail the winning strategies you employ. (LOL)

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Alan, you know exactly what we do. It's up to go out and find those opportunities. I don't ask others where to look nor should they tell me. We go find them on our own. I'll give you a clue though. You'll never find them at a craps tables or BP VP.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

... ask Shell if they'll let you pay for a tank of gas with EV. Ask kewlj if he ever made a mortgage payment with EV.

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Speaking of gas I'm getting a 5% rebate on gas purchases this quarter on one of my credit cards. I pay the balance off every month so I don't get tagged for interest. I guess you could say this is an AP move. The only reason I have this particular card is because of the various rebate offers I get every quarter. And I sometimes buy my gas at Shell.

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Hi Mickey,
At Seven Feathers here in SW Oregon they own the truck stop & gas station across the street from the casino. They allow players card holders to use comps for fuel. We alternate vehicles and my card or my wife’s for our weekly visit. We haven’t had to use actual cash or debit to pay for gas in quite some time. That’s our AP (not really) move. LOL.

P.S.
I regularly play 9/7 DB @ $1 but never did find the 10/7 DB that you mentioned you had heard about somewhere online.

I dont know why its important for people who AP to want to make people like AM believe that they have a viable way to make money. In fact the more people who think you dont exist..the better for you operating under the radar.
No one would ever expect you to provide tax returns, because it shouldnt be that important in a normal persons life to see such documents. No one would ever expect you to divulge your methods or secrets...as that would be professional and financial suicide.

So all we can ever have is 'i am an AP"......AND "no you are not"

this type of back and forth has been going on in message boards all over the place...and has never changed any ones mind.

"you dont exist but show me proof".......And "I have no proof that I want to show you" ....is all we see,

Any dope knows that card counting works for a select group,of people, as casinos banish people who they suspect are using it.
Anyone knows that there are people like Billy Walters that have made millions on sports.
we know there are people who make a living on poker. People who have done it for years before the "moneymaker effect"....like doyle brunson.

All the above are Aps to some extent.

so all that can be debated is if an individual is a successful AP. Not whether its possible to be APs.
There is enough evidence to show successful APs exist

I happen to believe an AP like KJ that seems to tell the good and bad of his life and just doesnt crow about his wins . He even posted a loss and got questioned as to why he allowed himself to lose. Pretty funny.

So if you dont believe him or anyone else who claims to be a SUCCESSFUL AP...thats great. Choose not to and find another thread that interests you...because if you stay and argue ...all you can do is request evidence....and no one owes you evidence...just as I dont owe anyone evidence that I was a registered pharmacist.

Basically, fuck you if you dont believe it.....and then we move on.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

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Originally Posted by Dankyone

Um, no, you sucked up to him like he was Ken Uston and he pretended dishonestly like he was God.

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Nothing I say will be accepted by you. You don't like him. End of story.

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And nothing we say will be accepted by you. You don't like us. You'll continue to be a sheep slaughtered by casinos. If you truly want to be a casino winner, you'll employ strategies and tactics that we employ. There is no other way about it, period!

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And that will probably never happen. Guys like Alan don't want to be bothered with all the scouting, thinking, networking, strategies, investigation, and tactics AP's employ. He wants to enter the most convenient casino and sit (or stand) his ass in one spot and start gambling until whenever he's satisfied or he runs out of session money(some of the same traits a compulsive gambler would have. I'm not saying HE IS a compulsive gambler). He may be savvy enough to seek out better than average paytables(Don't play 6/5 jacks vs 8/5 bonus) and collect perks. If by some chance there's something extra going on, he knows to add it in. But it obviously ends there.

I have a feeling the reason he got interested in Rob Singers VP system in the first place is the fact that it didn't seem to require much effort in finding a location to play.

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Originally Posted by LarryS

I dont know why its important for people who AP to want to make people like AM believe that they have a viable way to make money. In fact the more people who think you dont exist..the better for you operating under the radar.
No one would ever expect you to provide tax returns, because it shouldnt be that important in a normal persons life to see such documents. No one would ever expect you to divulge your methods or secrets...as that would be professional and financial suicide.

So all we can ever have is 'i am an AP"......AND "no you are not"

this type of back and forth has been going on in message boards all over the place...and has never changed any ones mind.

"you dont exist but show me proof".......And "I have no proof that I want to show you" ....is all we see,

Any dope knows that card counting works for a select group,of people, as casinos banish people who they suspect are using it.
Anyone knows that there are people like Billy Walters that have made millions on sports.
we know there are people who make a living on poker. People who have done it for years before the "moneymaker effect"....like doyle brunson.

All the above are Aps to some extent.

so all that can be debated is if an individual is a successful AP. Not whether its possible to be APs.
There is enough evidence to show successful APs exist

I happen to believe an AP like KJ that seems to tell the good and bad of his life and just doesnt crow about his wins . He even posted a loss and got questioned as to why he allowed himself to lose. Pretty funny.

So if you dont believe him or anyone else who claims to be a SUCCESSFUL AP...thats great. Choose not to and find another thread that interests you...because if you stay and argue ...all you can do is request evidence....and no one owes you evidence...just as I dont owe anyone evidence that I was a registered pharmacist.

Basically, fuck you if you dont believe it.....and then we move on.

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Ok, what are you up to? What did KJ promise you?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Kewlj you made an outrageous claim that losing $8800 contributed to your profits because it was part of your +EV play. I will never accept that losing $8800 of real money will be a positive development. Never.

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I couldn't give a rats ass what you accept or don't accept. You are a loud mouth blow hard who doesn't know a damn thing about how to play with an advantage. For Christ's sakes you can't even "accept" that you didn't see lightning strike, the same person 18 times in a row. :rolleyes: You are so far detached from reality, who freaking cares what you 'accept' or don't. :cool:

There are other positive developments regarding losing $8800 that I haven't even touched on. Like the fact that 'booking a loss' is often very beneficial to card counters who play the same rotation of casinos. It can increase longevity by a great deal, allowing for many more profitable hours. Now that is not to say anyone 'tries' to lose, but when you find yourself in a hole, it can be very beneficial to go ahead and quit and 'book that loss', have that loss recorded on your record.

I have 'triggers' for ending my session, which for the most part has to do with exiting after showing my spread, or if the count turns negative. There is also a time trigger. But sometimes if none of these triggers are met, and I find myself down, I will go ahead and exit, even though an 'exit trigger' has not been met, just to book that loss. Like I said, very beneficial to longevity. :cool:

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Originally Posted by LarryS

I happen to believe an AP like KJ that seems to tell the good and bad of his life and just doesnt crow about his wins . He even posted a loss and got questioned as to why he allowed himself to lose. Pretty funny.

So if you dont believe him or anyone else who claims to be a SUCCESSFUL AP...thats great. Choose not to and find another thread that interests you...because if you stay and argue ...all you can do is request evidence....and no one owes you evidence...just as I dont owe anyone evidence that I was a registered pharmacist.

Basically, fuck you if you dont believe it.....and then we move on.

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Thank you LarryS. And this from a guy that doesn't care for me very much.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

when you find yourself in a hole, it can be very beneficial to go ahead and quit and 'book that loss', have that loss recorded on your record.

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What are you claiming here...that the entire loss was at one casino?...where they are keeping a record of your play?

How do they do that? Did you present a player's card. Do they have your personal info?

I did not claim the entire loss for that day was at one casino. that need not be the case for it to be beneficial. Any "booked' loss is beneficial.

You do not need to present a players card to be known and/or have your play tracked. Casinos will actually assign an nickname to a regular player. Sometimes rather unflattering things of a descriptive nature. One of my entries in one of the databases is a description. (not all that accurate IMO)

Of course, what do I know.....I am a known liar.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I am a known liar.

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Yes you are...a proven and admitted liar. Do you deny that?

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I have 'triggers' for ending my session, which for the most part has to do with exiting after showing my spread, or if the count turns negative. There is also a time trigger. But sometimes if none of these triggers are met, and I find myself down, I will go ahead and exit, even though an 'exit trigger' has not been met, just to book that loss. Like I said, very beneficial to longevity. :cool:

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I recall a post of yours at WoV. You wrote that you would leave after showing your spread to avoid detection? I remember this quite vividly, as well as having reread it, at the time, because it sounded so strange.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I am a known liar.

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Yes you are...a proven and admitted liar. Do you deny that?

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Hmmm, you sure have turned into Suzy Chatterbox since Biloxi was banned. You barely said boo when he was here. ��

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

I recall a post of yours at WoV. You wrote that you would leave after showing your spread to avoid detection? I remember this quite vividly, as well as having reread it, at the time, because it sounded so strange.

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That is correct. Exiting after showing your spread, rather than retreating back to a small wager is a common strategy among short session, hit-and-run type players. Why is that strange? The biggest 'tell' of a card counter is retreating back to a small wager at the shuffle. Avoiding that is huge in terms of longevity.

Just as a point of interest. With history telling us that people have made livings throughadvantage play,like Billy Walters, and a host of poker players.I dont know BJ card counters by name because they work under the radar.
All APs above. Poker players use the math to decide actons(along with tells and knowledge of the player).

So for the people questioning the validity of KJ. Are you saying there is no such thing as an AP....is that the argument. Or are you saying that there are plenty of APs around...but just not KJ or whoever claims to be an AP here. I dont keep track whohere is an AP. Maybe Axel or redietz. I am not sure what the argument is. Is it an entire trade that is viewed a bogus...or is it the claims of an individual

I think I will start a thread with a survey...so at least when I read threads I know where people are coming from..

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Originally Posted by LarryS

Is it an entire trade that is viewed a bogus...or is it the claims of an individual

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It's not the entire trade...bogus claims of individuals cast doubt upon their entire narrative.

For instance, less than 2 years ago the self-proclaimed AP jbjb did not understand how freeplay works.

There was a lengthy thread about it, dozens of posts...arguing, name-calling, a typical VCT debate...and he just did not understand how it worked.

Now how is it possible that a fulltime AP doesn't know how freeplay works?

I think there are plenty of APs, and I think kewlj might very well be a very successful AP. But I've never met him and I can't tell you who he is, where he lives, or even if he owns a house. But I do not challenge anything except for two things:

1. Counting two tables. But now that he says the counting ability at a second table is limited I no longer have anything to say.

2. His claim that losing $8800 is some kind of +EV win. Sorry I'll never accept that.

Kewlj however has gone too far with his attacks on me. They've become personal, and libelous.

I know AP card counters. One of my video editors at KCAL was/is a very successful counter and I've played with him and actually saw him get warned by a pit boss when he blundered and jumped his bet from $10 to $100 when the count went in his favor. I know card counting is real. I just draw the line between real and fantastic.

Who counts an $8800 loss as +EV? That is fantastic. But now we all know and understand that two table counting is limited.

I also recall jbjb not understanding freeplay. It was surprising to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

kewlj might very well be a very successful AP. But I've never met him and I can't tell you who he is, where he lives, or even if he owns a house. But I do not challenge anything except for two things

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Before you joined, the self-proclaimed AP kewlJ spammed the site with multiple posts accusing me of a crime.

Dan deleted the posts, and the scumbag got off with a warning.

He invited me to discuss this on the AC Boardwalk at the same time he had Eagles tickets.

Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus...I challenge everything that tewl claims.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Kewlj however has gone too far with his attacks on me. They've become personal, and libelous.

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I agree, he has been continuously libeling you for quite some time.

I recall that when I first joined your tag line was a quote about your reputation, I still look to copy/paste it but cannot find it anymore.

KJ should be banned, just like he has been banned everywhere else.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

He invited me to discuss this on the AC Boardwalk at the same time he had Eagles tickets.

Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus...I challenge everything that tewl claims.

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Oh big deal, coach belly. What a little girl you are. (where is the vomiting emoji?)

It was a good game too. Easy Eagles win over the Bears. I really enjoyed myself.

And for the record I don't know how, but the Eagles will find a way to beat Minnesota Sunday night. Minnesota is the better team with an awesome defense, but mark my words, somehow the Eagles will win this game. Now the superbowl, that will be a problem. :(

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

And for the record I don't know how, but the Eagles will find a way to beat Minnesota Sunday night. Minnesota is the better team with an awesome defense, but mark my words, somehow the Eagles will win this game. Now the superbowl, that will be a problem. :(

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OK...we have found common ground. The Vikes have no business being in this game.

Plus I grew up in Moorestown.

I respect the Pats, but pull for the Jags and their VP Tom Coughlin.

The Giants fucked up letting him go.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Oh big deal, coach belly.

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No big deal, but it's a pattern. It displays that you'll say anything, so everything you say is suspect.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

And for the record I don't know how, but the Eagles will find a way to beat Minnesota Sunday night. Minnesota is the better team with an awesome defense, but mark my words, somehow the Eagles will win this game. Now the superbowl, that will be a problem. :(

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OK...we have found common ground. The Vikes have no business being in this game.

Plus I grew up in Moorestown.

I respect the Pats, but pull for the Jags and their VP Tom Coughlin.

The Giants fucked up letting him go.

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I was rooting for the Vikings because I believe the Eagles can find a way to beat Minnesota. Low scoring ugly defensive struggle, maybe a defensive TD or something. I do not believe they could have beaten the Saints. The Saints would have scored points and the eagles just wouldn't have been able to score enough to win.

That said and happy as I was at the bizarre outcome, that defensive back for New Orleans should be cut. That was horrendous. No excuse. Not wanting to cause pass interference is NOT adequate. A defensive back's job is to defend that pass. To let the guy not only catch that ball, but then walk into the endzone, should be a job costing play.

On the other side, Pittsburgh could have beaten the Patriots. "Could have", not necessarily "would have". But they could have played with them. I don't know if the Jags can. they might be able to also, but I am just not sure. I am just not familiar enough with them and not sold that Bordles won't have a clunker of a game on the big stage.

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Originally Posted by coach belly

Plus I grew up in Moorestown.

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Good grief, another one from the Garden State.

We moved to Haddonfield after my junior year; I worked at the Moorestown Mall before putting NJ in my rear view in 1976.

Fuck the Patriots!

The Jags beat them preseason, so I feel pretty good about their chances of stamping out this NFL cancer.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by coach belly

Plus I grew up in Moorestown.

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Good grief, another one from the Garden State.

We moved to Haddonfield after my junior year; I worked at the Moorestown Mall before putting NJ in my rear view in 1976.

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My spouse was from South Jersey. Isn't it all swamp land? I know the train ride from Philly to AC went through all that swamp land and pine barons.

1976? :confused: Did they have rear view mirrors? Did they even have cars? Did you come west in a wagon train? :p

wasnt haddonfield the location of a horror movie...like 40 years ago. maybe not filmed there,,but in the script

And for the record I don't know how, but the Eagles will find a way to beat Minnesota Sunday night. Minnesota is the better team with an awesome defense, but mark my words, somehow the Eagles will win this game. Now the superbowl, that will be a problem.

eagles did a good job hiding their QB. 70 percent of their passing yardage was after the catch. So if Foles dinks and dunks with short passes, and the vikes allow alot of yards after the catch....then the eagles have a chance. But I am not counting on that. If they get ahead of Foles like they did with the saints.....Foles aint coming back like Drew Brees.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I also recall jbjb not understanding freeplay. It was surprising to say the least.

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Sure. I admit I was thinking it through the wrong way while playing it off on video roulette a certain way. But unlike you, I figured out where I was wrong and admitted so. I'm sure there are other things I don't know about as well.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I also recall jbjb not understanding freeplay. It was surprising to say the least.

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Sure. I admit I was thinking it through the wrong way while playing it off on video roulette a certain way. But unlike you, I figured out where I was wrong and admitted so. I'm sure there are other things I don't know about as well.

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Same with everyone here. It's laughable that people would make a big deal about something like that.

Some things, especially for an AP, are basic. I would think any AP would master free play because isn't free play an essential element of that +EV?

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Originally Posted by tableplay

It's laughable that people would make a big deal about something like that.

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It's laughable that a self-proclaimed full-time AP would not know how freeplay worked,
that he would be the only one here that couldn't comprehend something so simple, so basic...it's all about the math, dummy.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I also recall jbjb not understanding freeplay. It was surprising to say the least.

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Sure. I admit I was thinking it through the wrong way while playing it off on video roulette a certain way. But unlike you, I figured out where I was wrong and admitted so. I'm sure there are other things I don't know about as well.

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Same with everyone here. It's laughable that people would make a big deal about something like that.

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I too have been wondering why Alan thinks this is a big deal. So jbjb didn't know about it and has since learned about it. That's the way life works isn't it?

When I moved to Vegas, I had been supporting myself for half dozen years by AP play (blackjack). I didn't know squat about machine play...still don't know much and now I have supported myself for 14 years as an AP. Doesn't mean anything...excepted he learned...progressed. :)

I mean what do you think every AP knows everything about every method of AP play? :confused: Do you think the punter on a professional football teams, knows the defensive signals that are sent into the linebacker? Doesn't mean he isn't a professional football player. :rolleyes:

Again kewlj free play is such a vital element of +EV that an AP has to know it. Even table game players get free play.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Sure. I admit I was thinking it through the wrong way while playing it off on video roulette a certain way. But unlike you, I figured out where I was wrong and admitted so. I'm sure there are other things I don't know about as well.

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Same with everyone here. It's laughable that people would make a big deal about something like that.

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I too have been wondering why Alan thinks this is a big deal. So jbjb didn't know about it and has since learned about it. That's the way life works isn't it?

When I moved to Vegas, I had been supporting myself for half dozen years by AP play (blackjack). I didn't know squat about machine play...still don't know much and now I have supported myself for 14 years as an AP. Doesn't mean anything...excepted he learned...progressed. :)

I mean what do you think every AP knows everything about every method of AP play? :confused: Do you think the punter on a professional football teams, knows the defensive signals that are sent into the linebacker? Doesn't mean he isn't a professional football player. :rolleyes:

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Exactly. For example I know next to nothing about the carnival games. I have heard they are exploitable and I would like to learn more about them.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Some things, especially for an AP, are basic. I would think any AP would master free play because isn't free play an essential element of that +EV?

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I use it strictly on video poker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Again kewlj free play is such a vital element of +EV that an AP has to know it. Even table game players get free play.

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Table games coupons can be quite valuable. Unfortunately, we play unrated so we don't get incentives.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I too have been wondering why Alan thinks this is a big deal. So jbjb didn't know about it and has since learned about it.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Exactly.

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jbjb has always claimed to vulture machines.

How could he possibly not understand how freeplay works?

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Some things, especially for an AP, are basic. I would think any AP would master free play because isn't free play an essential element of that +EV?

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I use it strictly on video poker.

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You didn't understand how it worked on VP either.

Do you want me to pull the quotes?

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Originally Posted by coach belly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Some things, especially for an AP, are basic. I would think any AP would master free play because isn't free play an essential element of that +EV?

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I use it strictly on video poker.

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You didn't understand how it worked on VP either.

Do you want me to pull the quotes?

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Works three ways:

1) Download credits from card to machine
2) Initiate a bet and get the bet returned while same amount deducted off players card (situation I was wrong about on roulette)
3) Coupon inserted into machine

I don't use free play on multipliers anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by coach belly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

I use it strictly on video poker.

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You didn't understand how it worked on VP either.

Do you want me to pull the quotes?

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Works three ways:

1) Download credits from card to machine
2) Initiate a bet and get the bet returned while same amount deducted off players card (situation I was wrong about on roulette)
3) Coupon inserted into machine

I don't use free play on multipliers anymore.

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Some casinos like Tamarack Junction (sister property to Silver Legacy) in Reno allow you to download free play without juicing it with a buck (or higher bill) - you just need to churn/bet the free play in order to withdraw it. Also you can accumulate comp points during the free play rundown there. Others are more stingy and are as you describe. One trick you can use is to find a low value TITO, like a penny, and stick it into the machine. Then you can download the free play without any usage of a federal reserve note.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by coach belly

You didn't understand how it worked on VP either.

Do you want me to pull the quotes?

---

Works three ways:

1) Download credits from card to machine
2) Initiate a bet and get the bet returned while same amount deducted off players card (situation I was wrong about on roulette)
3) Coupon inserted into machine

I don't use free play on multipliers anymore.

---

Some casinos like Tamarack Junction (sister property to Silver Legacy) in Reno allow you to download free play without juicing it with a buck (or higher bill) - you just need to churn/bet the free play in order to withdraw it. Also you can accumulate comp points during the free play rundown there. Others are more stingy and are as you describe. One trick you can use is to find a low value TITO, like a penny, and stick it into the machine. Then you can download the free play without any usage of a federal reserve note.

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That would be number one on my list. I hate that way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Works three ways:

1) Download credits from card to machine
2) Initiate a bet and get the bet returned while same amount deducted off players card (situation I was wrong about on roulette)
3) Coupon inserted into machine

I don't use free play on multipliers anymore.

---

Some casinos like Tamarack Junction (sister property to Silver Legacy) in Reno allow you to download free play without juicing it with a buck (or higher bill) - you just need to churn/bet the free play in order to withdraw it. Also you can accumulate comp points during the free play rundown there. Others are more stingy and are as you describe. One trick you can use is to find a low value TITO, like a penny, and stick it into the machine. Then you can download the free play without any usage of a federal reserve note.

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That would be number one on my list. I hate that way.

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I like it because I like accumulating comp points while using free play. To each their own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Some casinos like Tamarack Junction (sister property to Silver Legacy) in Reno allow you to download free play without juicing it with a buck (or higher bill) - you just need to churn/bet the free play in order to withdraw it. Also you can accumulate comp points during the free play rundown there. Others are more stingy and are as you describe. One trick you can use is to find a low value TITO, like a penny, and stick it into the machine. Then you can download the free play without any usage of a federal reserve note.

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That would be number one on my list. I hate that way.

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I like it because I like accumulating comp points while using free play. To each their own.

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Well yeah, I would too if you get comps on it. I just hate counting down the hands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

That would be number one on my list. I hate that way.

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I like it because I like accumulating comp points while using free play. To each their own.

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Well yeah, I would too if you get comps on it. I just hate counting down the hands.

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I would suggest this:

Are you certain that method 1 on your list doesn't generate comp points ? Both Hobey's and Tamarack generate comp points with this method.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tableplay

I like it because I like accumulating comp points while using free play. To each their own.

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Well yeah, I would too if you get comps on it. I just hate counting down the hands.

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I would suggest this:

Are you certain that method 1 on your list doesn't generate comp points ? Both Hobey's and Tamarack generate comp points with this method.

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It doesn't in a local location. Oddly, a few years ago, there was a certain machine that after downloading it, would allow you to straight cash out that amount. Had to be a glitch. Unfortunately, it got fixed.

I ask this seriously. What is the downside to inserting a 5 dollar bill, play the freeplay and if you dont want to continue..just cash out 5 dollars.
What is so great about the situation at Silver Legacy in reno, compared to the cash in first situation at Atlantis. We all can afford to carry 5 dollars.

whats the "benefit"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LarryS

I ask this seriously. What is the downside to inserting a 5 dollar bill, play the freeplay and if you dont want to continue..just cash out 5 dollars.
What is so great about the situation at Silver Legacy in reno, compared to the cash in first situation at Atlantis. We all can afford to carry 5 dollars.

whats the "benefit"

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If you hit anything at or above $1200 the machine locks up and your cash and the free play become indistinguishable from one another

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Again kewlj free play is such a vital element of +EV that an AP has to know it. Even table game players get free play.

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Hold on, Alan. According to you, you've said it many many times, freeplay is worthless. So now you are saying it is a vital element of +EV? So you've changed your mind? Why did you change your mind? Did you acknowledge here that you changed your mind? Whose input was it that changed your mind?

And this thing about KJ slandering you. Do you really think we are all stupid enough to believe such ignorant blather from you? You trolled him unmercifully to the point he had to respond. It was YOU slandering him. I think you should be suspended for at least a month for trolling KJ and suspended for another month for lying about it.

And Belly has never contributed anything positive here. Nothing. Nada. His whole schtick is harassing AP's. That's it. He has no value here. He's 110% troll and should be banned.

Mickey I never downplayed free play. I use it just like everyone. My complaint with kewlj's +EV is that he's counting his $8800 loss as some kind of cockamamie contribution to his +EV.

Trolling? I just wanted him to concede that counting a second table isn't clear as day and he did that. Now it's up to everyone to decide for themselves if his second table count gets 80% or 60% or 20% of the cards.

Even you mickeycrimm left out some details about your $15 a minute play... like you have to find it and that could take a long time, right?

Ya know Mickey when you lose money it's easy to post and no one questions the details: I've never had a profitable year gambling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

My complaint with kewlj's +EV is that he's counting his $8800 loss as some kind of cockamamie contribution to his +EV.

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This is because YOU don't understand what EV even is. And you don't want to understand. You just want to troll, making accusations based on your predetermined uninformed opinions.

I am going to treat you like an adult, like a reasonable person, and yet again try to explain to you blackjack EV. And I am quite sure, you won't listen, won't try to understand and I will regret it.

Blackjack EV (expected value):
Every hand that a player plays has an expected value, based on whether the player has the advantage for that round or the dealer, which is determined by the count as the hand is played, multiplied by the amount of the wager. Some rounds favor the player (positive counts). Negative counts favor the dealer. Neutral counts slightly favor the dealer. So every round played has an EV, some positive, some negative.

So we can't add all the EV together by actually tracking the actual EV. That would be near impossible without a computer. So we figure the EV through computer simulations, which will tell us on average, just how many hands per 100 hands played will be positive EV and how many will be negative EV. This allows us to come up with an average EV per 100 hands played and subsequently an average EV per hand. Most of the games I play the EV (expected value) or expected win for +EV, is anywhere between $75 and $120 per 100 rounds played, depending on number of decks, rules and penetration. That means that each round played is worth between 75 cents and $1.20.

For ease of this explanation, let's just assume I am playing a game that generates an even $1 per round EV. So I sit down and play 2 shoes at a game with 2 other players. That is 4 hands per round (3 player and dealer) @ 2.8 cards per hand which is the average number of cards as per Don Schlesingers Blackjack Attack 3 (just stating where these numbers are coming from). That is 21 rounds played before the shuffle x 2 shoes is 42 rounds played. So that is $42 in EV.

Next casino (or maybe another table or pit at the same casino) I play 36 rounds, same conditions. That is another $36 in EV. At the end of the day I add up the EV from each session for a total EV for the day. (My goal each day is $300 in EV). Now I take each of those daily EV totals and add then up for the year and by years end the EV and actual win are usually pretty close. This represents the long-term (by my definition). And if you extend it out even further, adding several years together, the actual win and EV is even closer.

For example 2010 thru 2017, my first 8 full years in Vegas my blackjack EV totaled $566,000 and my actual blackjack win was $587,000. THAT is pretty darn close! This is what EV is. It grows by the amount you play and that's why you keep playing. Daily wins and losses don't matter. THAT is nothing but short-term variance. But when you get into the long-term, of months and year(s), EV and actual win will be pretty darn close. And that is not an accident or coincidence. That is mathematics!

So when I have a day that I lose $3000 or $5000, or $8800, or even $10,000 it is almost irrelevant. What will matter is the EV earned. That is where the actual win will end up long-term. AND it works the other way as well. When I have a day that I win $6500, I haven't really won $6500. That is just variance. What I have really earned (and won long-term) is the amount of EV I played that day.

This is a pretty good explanation. I have taught 3 different people to play, including one who was basically an idiot, and even he managed to understand. Yet, somehow, I just know you still won't get it. In large part, because you don't want to get it. :rolleyes:

Kewlj here's how I look at it: you have two ledgers.

Ledger #1 is for your expected value of each hand you play. It includes things such as the count, comps, cash, free play, peeking at hole cards, match play and whatever tools you have to give you more when you bet.

Ledger #2 is for your actual results after each hand is played.

My position is each ledger is independent. So you might have had $10,000 of expected value on Day 6 in ledger #1, but ledger #2 will show an $8800 loss.

That's forever how I'll look at it. You won't agree and so we'll just have to disagree and move on. Good luck. And I hope that the next time you have $10,000 of EV that you actually win $20,000.